Author Topic: Birmingham, code 01 parked in a restricted street, Louisa Street Bank holiday Sunday  (Read 1340 times)

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The PCN is now at £70 so no point in submitting a challenge now, if not already done and provided this isn't a leased car.

Might as well wait for the Notice to owner which will be sent to the address registered at DVKLA (best go and look at the registration document itself to check it is up to date).
I help you pro bono (for free). I now ask that a £40 donation is made to the North London Hospice before I take over your case. I have an 85% success rate across 2,000 PCNs but some PCNs can't be beaten and I will tell you if your case looks hopeless before asking you to donate.

@Lee74 the main point really is whether your employer will allow you to challenge the penalty on their behalf. I suggest that is the next thing you need to find out because without the registered keeper's cooperation, you're not going to be pursuing any appeal.
I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor or a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193 and I abide by the SPMF service standards.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order

So I have received a reply. Doesn't bare any resemblance to what my appeal was.. Do I reply or now wait?






« Last Edit: June 22, 2024, 10:29:40 pm by Lee74 »

HCA has suggested grounds for cancellation on the grounds of procedural impropriety in that the PCN fails to describe the contravention that occurred. As far as I can see there is nothing else you could rely on, the signage is clear enough.

So I have received a reply. Doesn't bare any resemblance to what my appeal was.. Do I reply or now wait?
@Lee74 neither, as I said earlier you need to secure agreement from your employer that you will be allowed to challenge the penalty on behalf of the company.

There is no point in replying as the council won't consider anything you send before a notice to owner is served. If you wait and your employer pays the PCN upon receipt, you lose the right to appeal and they'll likely demand that you reimburse them. Hence you need to secure agreement from the company that they will allow you to challenge the penalty and you need to do this now, before the notice to owner is issued.
I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor or a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193 and I abide by the SPMF service standards.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order

Ok they have sent the NIP what is my reply to this please?










Thanks for any help



As said by others, it's not 'your' reply.

The NTO is addressed to your employer, yes? In which case the penalty charge is being demanded from them, not you.

The regs provide:

Representations against the enforcement notice[AKA Notice to Owner]
5.—(1) The recipient may make representations against the enforcement notice to the enforcement authority which served it on the recipient.


- my emphasis.

So, we need to know your intra-company protocols pl. You cannot make reps without the authority of the company.

As regards the structure of any reps, I would go with...

PCN ********
We are making formal representations against the Notice to Owner issued by you in respect of the above PCN. We consider that each of the following grounds applies:

Procedural Impropriety;
Alleged Contravention did not occur;
Penalty charge exceeded the anount applocable in the circumstances of the case.

There is no issue that our car was parked on a single yellow line in *** at *** on ****. Our driver advises us that they were unaware that the waiting restriction conveyed by the SYL was in effect because they parked on a Sunday. We have read your reply to their informal representations, seen the signs which they would have passed when entering the zone and considered the PCN grounds of contravention which are repeated in the NTO. The following errors on the council's and the authority's part are immediately apparent.

The signs in question are situated in Clement Street and Google Street View gives us their precise wording and location as at May 2024.

The signs at issue are of the form given in the diagram in Part 2 of Schedule 5 to the Traffic Signs etc. Regulations 2016.  including the optional lower panel.

The signs state:
Controlled ZONE
(no waiting symbol)
No loading
--------------------
Everyday
8am-7.30pm

We now refer to your letter dated *** rejecting *****'s representations in which you have stressed the importance and effect of these signs e.g. they are given in the Highway Code, that further information is available on the DfT website etc. You further state that these signs are in common use throughout the country, thereby implying that there is no excuse for a driver not observing their restrictions. On which point, we would refer you to the Local Authorities' Traffic Order(Procedures)(England and Wales) Regulations 1996, regulation 18 of which states:

Traffic signs
18.—(1) Where an order relating to any road has been made, the order making authority shall take such steps as are necessary to secure—

(a)before the order comes into force, the placing on or near the road of such traffic signs in such positions as the order making authority may consider requisite for securing that adequate information as to the effect of the order is made available to persons using the road;

(b)the maintenance of such signs for so long as the order remains in force


I am certain that the council's and the enforcement authority's dilemma must now be clear.

The sign imposes a loading restriction concurrent with that for waiting;
But there are no mandatory loading markings in Louisa Street(the location of the alleged contravention);
If the waiting and loading restrictions apply concurrently then there is no legal basis upon which it can be the case that only one of these may be breached at any one time and, even if there were, who would choose.

It therefore follows that Louisa Street is improperly marked and the council has failed to meet its mandatory obligation in this respect and consequently the grounds alleged in the PCN are improper or,

That the council have marked the CPZ entrance signs improperly, despite, as you say, there being extensive advice available from government on this and them being in common use throughout the country.

We look forward to receiving your considered response to the above.

Probably a tad OTT, but hey-ho.

Incandescent, my GSV shows May this year, am I looking at the correct one?

Quote
Incandescent, my GSV shows May this year, am I looking at the correct one?
OP says he turned into Clements Street, an entrance to the zone, and where the entry signs are located, then parked on a single-yellow line in Louisa Street: -
https://maps.app.goo.gl/M3qFpmyuK9N3rBFB6
GSV dated March 2021
Here is 66, Louisa St where the alleged contravention occurred
https://maps.app.goo.gl/dmwbYwiJBE4hj4m88
GSV dated June 2023

Thanks. Your link takes me to Clement Street j/w B4135 and my GSV has views from May 2024.

Hi

We didn't hear anything after our letter and now the following has arrived... Can you advise how we should proceed? Many thanks in advance




OP, a key issue with your case is that the car is leased, and you have not told us anything so far on what the lease company do with any PCNs or Notices to Owner they receive. They hold the V5C Registration Certificate for the car, not you and are therefore responsible for payment or appealing the PCN, but can submit representations giving your name and address as the lessee on the contravention date.

You posted a Notice to Owner. Was the address on it yours or the lease company ? If yours, did you submit representations ?

The next document you've posted is the Order for Recovery, (OfR) but there should have been a Charge Certificate issued before this. Was a CC received ?  What address is on the OfR ? 

We didn't hear anything after our letter

OP, firstly please confirm that the Notice to Owner in your post #20 and this OfR are addressed to your company, not the hire company.


If so, then the procedure is that if reps were submitted in accordance with the instructions on the NTO then you were entitled to receive a response.

So, if the above applies then tick the box 'Made representations but did not....'. Complete the rest of the form as instructed and return to the Traffic Enforcement Centre as directed.

TEC will notify you that this Order for Recovery and the preceding(which you didn't get) Charge Certificate have been cancelled. The matter would then have to be referred to the adjudicator by the council, not you.

Hi

Thnaks for your reply. The company own the vehicle they don't lease.

So this is currently with tribunals service. they've rejected the form as it wasn't signed then rejected it agin as a box wasn't ticked..

Ive now received this.. should I respond?



Many thanks for the help

Quote
So this is currently with tribunals service.
Don't you mean the Traffic Enforcement Centre ? You have to get the process reverted before you can even think about an appeal to the Traffic Penalty Tribunal.