3. Birmingham CAZ PCN - U-turn mistake, appeal advice needed
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Re: Birmingham CAZ PCN - U-turn mistake, appeal advice needed
« Reply #15 on: »
Quote from: Wajeh63 on February 06, 2025, 10:33:41 pm
I think the case is bit complex. So I have no choice rather to pay them fine before the discount period is over. Otherwise it's gonna affect my credit history.
So what makes this case complex ? It is easy; you mistakenly turned left, saw the CAZ sign, stopped then U-turned using the triangular traffic island and rejoined your original route. At no time did you enter the CAZ.

There is no possibility of any affect on your credit history; put that out of your mind now. Of course councils will browbeat you and intimidate you by saying they will take the matter to the county court if you don't pay, but they are bluffing.  There is only ONE "court" that they HAVE to use called the Traffic Enforcement Centre that is there to  register PCN debts. It has no court rooms or judges, and no CCJs result. A council can, once a PCN debt is registered, instruct bailiffs to collect the debt.

If you now take Birmingham to the adjudicators, as is your absolute right in law, the PCN penalty is the maximum you are liable to pay if you lose. If you do lose, and then fail to pay after that, then the council can register the debt as above and get bailiffs to collect it.

But it's your money so pay-up if you want to.
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Re: Birmingham CAZ PCN - U-turn mistake, appeal advice needed
« Reply #16 on: »
Thanks for the clarification! Since I never actually entered the CAZ, this should be a strong case for the Tribunal. Have there been similar cases where people won? Also, do I need to request any additional evidence from the council, like video footage, to strengthen my argument? I have submitted representation what else I can do on my behalf.
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Re: Birmingham CAZ PCN - U-turn mistake, appeal advice needed
« Reply #17 on: »
Quote from: Incandescent on February 06, 2025, 12:09:52 pm
Quote from: stamfordman on February 06, 2025, 12:06:03 pm
Quote from: Incandescent on February 06, 2025, 12:01:29 pm
If it were me, I'd take them to the tribunal, because on your evidence you did not pass the sign on the left, but turned round via the triangular island. For me, this means the contravention did not occcur, but it's your money so if you decide to pay the discount, I understand.

?? The picture shows the OP leaving the zone having presumably passed the entrance signs.
No it doesn't. Look at the Google Street View of the location. OP says he turned into the street, saw the sign, and then turned round using the triangular traffic island, so at no time did he pass the sign on the left. The sign on the right cannot be seen by drivers turning left into the street.

That's not true. Look at the council picture provided, the OP's car is adjacent to the pedestrian dropped kerb, and, from Google Street View it shows that the sign is before the crossing when entering the road, so therefore they must have passed the sign. That's not to say they may have a de minimus case though, but, as Birmingham don't reoffer the discount, it's a gamble.

OP, don't expect a quick reply to your appeal. In my experience it takes at least a month to receive a response.
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Re: Birmingham CAZ PCN - U-turn mistake, appeal advice needed
« Reply #18 on: »
Quote from: peodude on February 07, 2025, 04:24:48 pm
Quote from: Incandescent on February 06, 2025, 12:09:52 pm
Quote from: stamfordman on February 06, 2025, 12:06:03 pm
Quote from: Incandescent on February 06, 2025, 12:01:29 pm
If it were me, I'd take them to the tribunal, because on your evidence you did not pass the sign on the left, but turned round via the triangular island. For me, this means the contravention did not occcur, but it's your money so if you decide to pay the discount, I understand.

?? The picture shows the OP leaving the zone having presumably passed the entrance signs.
No it doesn't. Look at the Google Street View of the location. OP says he turned into the street, saw the sign, and then turned round using the triangular traffic island, so at no time did he pass the sign on the left. The sign on the right cannot be seen by drivers turning left into the street.

That's not true. Look at the council picture provided, the OP's car is adjacent to the pedestrian dropped kerb, and, from Google Street View it shows that the sign is before the crossing when entering the road, so therefore they must have passed the sign. That's not to say they may have a de minimus case though, but, as Birmingham don't reoffer the discount, it's a gamble.

OP, don't expect a quick reply to your appeal. In my experience it takes at least a month to receive a response.

Indeed there seems to be a bit of magical thinking here.

One update though - in this other current case Brum has reoffered the discount on rejection:

https://www.ftla.uk/civil-penalty-charge-notices-(councils-tfl-and-so-on)/birmingham-caz-pcn/
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Re: Birmingham CAZ PCN - U-turn mistake, appeal advice needed
« Reply #19 on: »
Actually, looking at this thread, https://www.ftla.uk/civil-penalty-charge-notices-(councils-tfl-and-so-on)/birmingham-caz-pcn/

It appears Birmingham are now offering a discount in their rejections.
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Re: Birmingham CAZ PCN - U-turn mistake, appeal advice needed
« Reply #20 on: »
So the photos contradict what the OP has told us.  So OP can you please clarify how you turned round have turned into the road by mistake.

As Bham seem now to be offering the discount, I think it is worthwhile submitting reps on a de minimis basis.
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Re: Birmingham CAZ PCN - U-turn mistake, appeal advice needed
« Reply #21 on: »
I accidentally took the wrong exit and turned into Frank Street, by mistake. Realizing it's  CAZ , I didn’t drive further into the zone. Instead, I immediately made a U-turn at the triangular island and rejoined my original route.
Do you think this is a strong argument to appeal on a de minimis basis?
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Re: Birmingham CAZ PCN - U-turn mistake, appeal advice needed
« Reply #22 on: »
Whether by mistake or not is not the issue. You entered the CAZ, this is strict liability and they may hold you liable. As shown in the photos you fully passed the signs which are situated at the start of the road. Unless the authority's video shows that you turned immediately after entering the CAZ then you have no objective evidence to support your claim.

They might exercise discretion, but if not then IMO you should think whether to risk the discount by going to tribunal on this point.
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Re: Birmingham CAZ PCN - U-turn mistake, appeal advice needed
« Reply #23 on: »
my two peneth,
collating the council pic with the gsv
I would suggest that unless the OP urned around the idland and subsequently reversed back up the road, he clearly did  pass the sign and likely performed a 3 point/u in the entrances directly in front of the cameras.
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Quote from: andy_foster
Mick, you are a very, very bad man
Re: Birmingham CAZ PCN - U-turn mistake, appeal advice needed
« Reply #24 on: »
So, Best option for me here is to wait untill 13th day and If no response came from Council(as it's likely).
I'll simply pay the Discounted fine and get rid of issue. Otherwise, it's gonna be long wait and argument with Council and Tribunal and in the end if they Reject my appeal. Still need to pay double fine.
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