Author Topic: CODE 01 Medway Clover Street Chatham Delivering food for the Homeless  (Read 312 times)

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H C Andersen

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Re: CODE 01 Medway Clover Street Chatham Delivering food for the Homeless
« Reply #15 on: December 09, 2024, 09:31:15 pm »
Please stop dancing on the head of a pin with this.

You were engaged in an exempt activity = it is as if the waiting restriction did  not exist.

You don't have to apologise, ask for forgiveness, plea for clemency: according to your account you were absolutely entitled to be parked where you were. And you could go back again, and again and again..providing it's on a Sunday!

One modification to my draft, you saw the PCN but it blew away before it could be examined. A minor change.

JOJO1209

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Re: CODE 01 Medway Clover Street Chatham Delivering food for the Homeless
« Reply #16 on: December 09, 2024, 09:49:39 pm »
Quote from: jojo1209

Thanks for all your input and drafts.

Please find below a draft of the appeal which I intend to send tonight.

Please can you check and comment and let me know if any amendment is needed.

Should I mention my conversation with the CEO later informing him I was delivering / unloading food.


Many thanks



Appeal against PCN MW912094257 issued 24th November 2024 - Clover Street Chatham ME4 4DE 24


I am challenging the PCN on the grounds that I was engaged in the exempt activity of unloading.
On the day in question I was delivering bulky food items to the Emmaus Church Centre on Clover
Street ME4 4DE Chatham and therefore there was no contravention.
Specifically, I was delivering food which would be distributed to homeless people through a scheme administered and led by the church. I was acting in a personal capacity and it was my first delivery.


I was taking a number of bulky food items for homeless people to the Emmaus Church Centre and needed to park by the entrance to do so.



Some of the delivery was hot food and in consequence; I had to contact specific volunteers within the building so that this could be transferred to their own insulated containers.
I needed to go to the centre and back to the car twice to unload all the food items.

I assume this were on either side of the PCN being issued -I saw the PCN  when I finally returned to my car but it was blown away in the extreme weather before I had the opportunity to remove it from the windscreen. In any event, this doesn't bear upon my circumstances or representations.
Please note that this food delivery donation will be a semi-regular activity depending upon availability. I will be making future trips to delivery our personal food donation to The Emmaus Church Centre.



I was delivering, a vehicle was essential, I parked as near to the church as possible and the activity took only as long as necessary in the circumstances to carry out this good cause; and trust you'll agree the exemption applies. Consequently, the exemption of delivering applies and the PCN should be cancelled.


I look forward to the early cancellation of this PCN.


JOJO1209

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Re: CODE 01 Medway Clover Street Chatham Delivering food for the Homeless
« Reply #17 on: December 09, 2024, 10:18:25 pm »

Please stop dancing on the head of a pin with this.

You crack me up. I couldn’t stop laughing

Quote from: H C Andersen
You were engaged in an exempt activity = it is as if the waiting restriction did  not exist.

You don't have to apologise, ask for forgiveness, plea for clemency: according to your account you were absolutely entitled to be parked where you were. And you could go back again, and again and again. Providing it's on a Sunday!

I like your use of words.

That’s right Sunday or After 5 pm Monday to Saturday.

Quote from: H C Andersen
One modification to my draft, you saw the PCN but it blew away before it could be examined. A minor change.

Thanks. Amended

Please can you check my final draft and amend accordingly if needed. Cheers


stamfordman

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Re: CODE 01 Medway Clover Street Chatham Delivering food for the Homeless
« Reply #18 on: December 10, 2024, 10:08:06 am »
No need to make meal of this - it's a parking PCN not an episode of Perry Mason.


El-Roi

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Re: CODE 01 Medway Clover Street Chatham Delivering food for the Homeless
« Reply #19 on: December 15, 2024, 01:05:26 am »
@H C Andersen @Standfordman

Received appeal rejection letter below dated 13th December to my appeal sent 10th December. Very quick rejection reply. Just saw it.

Any advice on what to do next. Should I pay or wait for notice to owner and appeal and if necessary take it to the Tribunal.
Grateful for Advise from the experts on the next step / action. What are the chances of winning if it goes up to the tribunal?



Parking Services
Gun Wharf
Dock Road
Chatham
Kent
ME4 4TR
13th December 2024


Dear xxxxx

PENALTY CHARGE NOTICE: MW92094257

I refer to your recent appeal regarding the above Penalty Charge Notice.
In exercising our discretion to cancel a penalty charge notice, the circumstances detailed in your representations have been considered and all reasons for appeal have been taken into consideration. However, on this occasion I cannot find any compelling grounds in which to do so.


Although you have stated that you were taking a number of bulky food items for homeless people to the Emmaus Church Centre and needed to park by the entrance to do so as some of the delivery was hot food and in consequence; I had to contact specific volunteers within the building so that this could be transferred to their own insulated containers, I am unfortunately unable to accept this as mitigating circumstances because your vehicle was parked in a 'Restricted Zone At Any Time' area. Your vehicle was not exempt, therefore a Penalty Charge Notice was enforced by Medway Council.


The entry signs in Clover Street clearly state that this is a 'Restricted Zone at any Time' and 'No Loading' on Monday to Saturday 10:00am to 5pm. Non loading vehicles are not permitted to park in this area at anytime. As your vehicle was parked in Clover Street on 24/11/2024, your vehicle was correctly issued a Penalty Charge Notice.


As much as I can appreciate the that the situation was helping others in need, I am unable to cancel the PCN on this basis as all drivers must ensure that their vehicle is parked legally and a good cause does not constitute parking illegally. As per Medway Council’s Parking Enforcement Policy, in a Zero Tolerance area, no observation period is required however I can confirm that the Civil Enforcement Officer witnessed no activity around the vehicle therefore the ticket was issued correctly.
I must advise that it is the driver’s responsibility to ensure all parking restrictions are adhered to before leaving the vehicle parked.


As per Medway Council’s Parking Enforcement Policy, no observation period is required to any vehicle parked in an 'at all times zone' within a zero tolerance area. However, I can confirm that the Civil Enforcement Officer witnessed no loading/unloading in the time observed.


Please find attached a copy of the link to our website in order for you to view the photographic evidence that endorses the fact that the Penalty Charge Notice was correctly issued. In order to access this page you will require your vehicle registration and penalty charge number. http://www.medway.gov.uk/parkingandtransport/parkingticketsandfines.aspx


On appraisal of the evidence there are insufficient grounds for waiving the Penalty Charge Notice on this occasion. I would therefore ask you to make payment of £35.00 within 14 days of the date of this letter to take advantage of the discount of 50% available for early payment of the Penalty Charge Notice. Failure to pay within the discounted period will result in the Penalty Charge Notice being enforced at its full value of £70.00.


Should you wish to appeal further a `Notice to Owner` will be sent to the owner/keeper of the vehicle at which stage the Penalty Charge Notice will stand at £70.00. Full details of how to appeal will be given on the `Notice to Owner`’. If you disagree with the council’s decision at the Notice To Owner stage you can appeal to the independent adjudicator. You can appeal by visiting the tribunal’s website: www.trafficpenaltytribunal.gov.uk/appeal


Please note the Parking Office has the facility to accept payments by Credit/Debit/Switch/Delta cards by using the automatic payments system on 01634 334477, or pay online at www.medway.gov.uk

El-Roi

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Re: CODE 01 Medway Clover Street Chatham Delivering food for the Homeless
« Reply #20 on: December 15, 2024, 01:16:50 am »
@H C Andersen

@stamfordman

Below is the appeal that was sent

Appeal against PCN MW912094257 Issued 24th November 2024 - Clover Street Chatham ME4 4DE

I am challenging the PCN on the grounds that I was engaged in the exempt activity of unloading.
On the day in question I was delivering bulky food items to the Emmaus Church Centre on Clover
Street ME4 4DE Chatham and therefore there was no contravention. Specifically, I was delivering food which would be distributed to homeless people through a scheme administered and led by the church. I was acting in a personal capacity and it was my first delivery.

I was taking a number of bulky food items for homeless people to the Emmaus Church Centre and needed to park by the entrance to do so. Some of the delivery was hot food and in consequence; I had to contact specific volunteers within the building so that this could be transferred to their own insulated containers.
I needed to go to the centre and back to the car twice to unload all the food items.
 I assume this were on either side of the PCN being issued - there was a PCN on my vehicle when I finally returned to my vehicle after my last trip from the ECC  but was blown away in the extreme weather. In any event, this doesn't bear upon my circumstances or representations.
Please note that this food delivery donation will be a semi-regular activity depending upon availability. I will be making future trips to delivery our personal food donation to The Emmaus Church Centre (TECC).
See attached links confirming the good cause carried out by the ECC in which I was part of and making a delivery.
https://emmaus.org.uk/about-us/ - Emmaus supports more than 850 people who have experienced homelessness. We provide a home, training and work opportunities as part of a
https://www.helpingthehomeless.org.uk/medway

I was delivering; a vehicle was essential; I parked as near to the church as possible and the activity took only as long as necessary in the circumstances to carry out this good cause; and trust you'll agree the exemption applies. Consequently, the exemption of delivering applies and the PCN should be cancelled.

I look forward to the early cancellation of this PCN.

Yours faithfully

Enceladus

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Re: CODE 01 Medway Clover Street Chatham Delivering food for the Homeless
« Reply #21 on: December 15, 2024, 02:37:42 am »
"The entry signs in Clover Street clearly state that this is a 'Restricted Zone at any Time' and 'No Loading' on Monday to Saturday 10:00am to 5pm. Non loading vehicles are not permitted to park in this area at anytime. As your vehicle was parked in Clover Street on 24/11/2024, your vehicle was correctly issued a Penalty Charge Notice."

Am I reading the rejection notice correctly? Are the Council trying to claim that Loading is allowed outside the restricted hours but Unloading is never allowed?

John U.K.

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Re: CODE 01 Medway Clover Street Chatham Delivering food for the Homeless
« Reply #22 on: December 15, 2024, 08:33:12 am »
Not sure  they understand that 24/11/2024 was a Sunday?

I don't often say you should carry on, but here I most definitely would continue .

They keep talking about 'mitigation' and 'discretion' - as HCA said, you had a statutory exemption. Muppets  >:(

See what others say.

Next stage: NtO - your sister must authorise you to reply, or she replies in her name.

H C Andersen

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Re: CODE 01 Medway Clover Street Chatham Delivering food for the Homeless
« Reply #23 on: December 15, 2024, 08:35:29 am »
Although you have stated that you were taking a number of bulky food items for homeless people to the Emmaus Church Centre and needed to park by the entrance to do so as some of the delivery was hot food and in consequence; I had to contact specific volunteers within the building so that this could be transferred to their own insulated containers, I am unfortunately unable to accept this as mitigating circumstances because your vehicle was parked in a 'Restricted Zone At Any Time' area. Your vehicle was not exempt, therefore a Penalty Charge Notice was enforced by Medway Council.

What an a**e. Disgraceful and brings the council into disrepute.


Carry on and let your sister make reps against the NTO.

Now that we know their, shall we say, ignorance of the law we can tailor the formal reps accordingly. 


The actual contravention as stated on the PCN:

Parked in a restricted street during prescribed hours

Which means in law that there weren't any active 'mo loading' restrictions at the time because if there were then the mandatory contravention grounds would be.

02 - Parked or loading/unloading in a restricted street where waiting and loading/unloading restrictions are in force.

And because delivering* is an exemption from a no waiting restriction (NOT mitigation but an exemption) then your argument must be considered.

But it wasn't, it was regarded as mitigation and to make things worse for the council the wrong legal test was applied anyway!

*- delivering, collecting, unloading, loading are synonymous expressions regarding this activity e.g. how could you load something that hasn't been collected and if you unloaded without delivering then the pavement would be knee-deep in goods!

It is irrelevant for your purposes whether the 'no waiting' restriction was conveyed by yellow lines with a traffic sign, yellow lines in a controlled zone or even no yellow lines in a Restricted Parking zone, the restriction is the same: no waiting. And unloading/delivering is permitted and an exempt activity, not some wishy-washy mitigation.

stamfordman

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Re: CODE 01 Medway Clover Street Chatham Delivering food for the Homeless
« Reply #24 on: December 15, 2024, 12:43:47 pm »
Medway 1 Homeless 0

But it's only half-time and manager team talk says it's a game of two halves.

Enceladus

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Re: CODE 01 Medway Clover Street Chatham Delivering food for the Homeless
« Reply #25 on: December 16, 2024, 01:31:43 am »
Next time you visit the Church, might it be possible to ask someone in the food for homeless team or the priest or pastor to write a note thanking you or at least acknowledging your donation of food at approx 16:19 on Sunday 24th Nov 2024? Including food that had to be decanted into the Church's food containers.

Whilst it might not be strictly necessary for a formal challenge against the NTO, when it arrives, or a subsequent appeal to the Adjudicator such a note or receipt might make it a little easier.

They just don't seem to accept or understand that because you were unloading, the food into the Church from your car, you were engaged in an activity which is permitted on a Sunday (or any other time outside the controlled hours on Mon to Sat). Possibly because you used a car and not a van.


El-Roi

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Re: CODE 01 Medway Clover Street Chatham Delivering food for the Homeless
« Reply #26 on: December 26, 2024, 10:53:58 pm »
Next time you visit the Church, might it be possible to ask someone in the food for homeless team or the priest or pastor to write a note thanking you or at least acknowledging your donation of food at approx 16:19 on Sunday 24th Nov 2024? Including food that had to be decanted into the Church's food containers.

Whilst it might not be strictly necessary for a formal challenge against the NTO, when it arrives, or a subsequent appeal to the Adjudicator such a note or receipt might make it a little easier.

They just don't seem to accept or understand that because you were unloading, the food into the Church from your car, you were engaged in an activity which is permitted on a Sunday (or any other time outside the controlled hours on Mon to Sat). Possibly because you used a car and not a van.

"Non loading vehicles are not permitted to park in this area at anytime        She seems to be inferring that the type of vehicle might also be a contributing factor i.e. - A car as opposed to a van. They fail to take into consideration the sign that Sunday is exempt. It is like they cannot interpret / see the sign correctly. Or the week is Monday to Saturday and Sunday doesn't exist.
2As per Medway Council’s Parking Enforcement Policy, in a Zero Tolerance area, no observation period is required however I can confirm that the Civil Enforcement Officer witnessed no activity around the vehicle therefore the ticket was issued correctly. If you are loading bulky items you will not stand by your car and it will magically get to where it is to be delivered.

To be honest not sure if I will go there again because of this PCN and the rejection. this might turn out to be a very expensive donation. That was my first trip / donation. I don't know the people who are in charge that will be in a position to do a letter and they might be reluctant that I have only been there once and asking them a favour to write a letter is embarrassing. Also they might not want to put anything down on paper. I don't know what their policy is. 

It means anytime I go there to deliver food I am going to get a PCN and the council will not understand if it is outside the restriction hours or not or whether it is Sunday. I don't have that type of money in addition to the time and money spent making the donation. It's really sad.


What are my chance of success without a letter /note from the centre?

I just need to know as the 14 days discount period is up tomorrow before midnight or the day after.

Incandescent

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Re: CODE 01 Medway Clover Street Chatham Delivering food for the Homeless
« Reply #27 on: December 26, 2024, 11:35:25 pm »
Reading this thread it is clear that your case for cancellation of the PCN is very strong.

You need to be aware that councils ruthlessly game the system to maximise the cash flow. One of the ways they do this is to refuse virtually all informal reps, knowing that if they do this, over 95% of people then cough-up the money.

Representations against Notices to Owner, the next stage, are looked at a bit more closely because at this stage the discount option has gone, and they know that if they refuse these, the appellant will take them to adjudication, because the penalty remains the same and there are no additional costs. Many councils even re-offer the discount at the NtO stage, but never publish this. A council has costs for an adjudication, being the fee, and also the task of preparing an evidence pack for the adjudication. The appellant has no fee to pay, just the PCN penalty if the case is lost.

Of course it is the vehicle owner as per the V5 Registration Certificate for the car that has responsibility for paying or appealing a PCN, so whether to proceed further now is their decision.
« Last Edit: December 26, 2024, 11:47:51 pm by Incandescent »

Enceladus

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Re: CODE 01 Medway Clover Street Chatham Delivering food for the Homeless
« Reply #28 on: December 27, 2024, 03:55:30 pm »
'''''''''''''''''''''
"Non loading vehicles are not permitted to park in this area at anytime        She seems to be inferring that the type of vehicle might also be a contributing factor i.e. - A car as opposed to a van. They fail to take into consideration the sign that Sunday is exempt. It is like they cannot interpret / see the sign correctly. Or the week is Monday to Saturday and Sunday doesn't exist.
2As per Medway Council’s Parking Enforcement Policy, in a Zero Tolerance area, no observation period is required however I can confirm that the Civil Enforcement Officer witnessed no activity around the vehicle therefore the ticket was issued correctly. If you are loading bulky items you will not stand by your car and it will magically get to where it is to be delivered.

To be honest not sure if I will go there again because of this PCN and the rejection. this might turn out to be a very expensive donation. That was my first trip / donation. I don't know the people who are in charge that will be in a position to do a letter and they might be reluctant that I have only been there once and asking them a favour to write a letter is embarrassing. Also they might not want to put anything down on paper. I don't know what their policy is. 

It means anytime I go there to deliver food I am going to get a PCN and the council will not understand if it is outside the restriction hours or not or whether it is Sunday. I don't have that type of money in addition to the time and money spent making the donation. It's really sad.


What are my chance of success without a letter /note from the centre?

I just need to know as the 14 days discount period is up tomorrow before midnight or the day after.
"Non loading vehicles are not permitted to park in this area at anytime". That's the prohibition conveyed by the Double Yellow Lines painted on the carriageway. The DYLs apply 24x365.

However stopping solely to load or unload is permitted outside of the restricted hours of Monday to Saturday 10:00am to 5pm and permitted all day on Sunday as stated on the time-plate on the sign. The 'No Loading' restriction is only part time.

I agree, the Notice of Rejection does read as if only purpose built vans are allowed to load/unload. Or they are just ignoring the fact it was a Sunday.

You were stopped to unload a food delivery on a Sunday, a delivery that had additionally to be decanted into the thermos containers used by the church's kitchen, so provided that's all you were doing then it was permitted.

So I would fight this all the way as it is plainly unjust and justice should prevail.

It's not entirely necessary to get something in writing from the church. However doing so might strengthen your hand and make things easier with the Adjudicator. The Adjudicator will make a judgement based on the balance of probability. You being a credible witness should be enough.

If you prevail with the Adjudicator then you will have to pay zero. If the Adjudicator doesn't buy your story then the bill will be £70. BTW I don't agree with the double or quits, my opinion is that the penalty should be consistent and national, but such is what Parliament decided.
« Last Edit: December 27, 2024, 04:10:48 pm by Enceladus »

stamfordman

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Re: CODE 01 Medway Clover Street Chatham Delivering food for the Homeless
« Reply #29 on: December 28, 2024, 05:12:28 pm »
I would certainly go on with this. The exemption is there for this kind of situation. And they wouldn't want a story about a heartless authority penalising a person delivering food to the homeless to appear in the local paper...