3. Parked without parking displaying a ticket - PCN
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DavidJP

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Parked without parking displaying a ticket - PCN
« on: May 26, 2024, 07:56:37 pm »
It appears one of my children has borrowed my car - neglected to pay for a ticket - failed to confess and now I've received a Notice to Owner. I'm still trying to identify who it was.

The evidence suggests the driver failed to pay for a ticket. I've also now missed out the opportunity for a discounted fine given the driver has failed to tell me about their indiscretion!

Is there any point in arguing this or asking for a discounted fine? Think I will need to pay up and perhaps have a strong word with the kids about being truthful and mindful!

Any help is gratefully received :




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cp8759

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Re: Parked without parking displaying a ticket - PCN
« Reply #1 on: May 27, 2024, 10:38:07 pm »
@DavidJP let's start again, unfortunately the information you were given only relates to roadside PCNs and what you have is a notice to owner.

The starting point is that the council's photos do not show a contravention, so as things stand there's no case to answer (but you don't want to tell them that!)

Please read the guidance here and re-post the notice to owner with the number plate and pcn number visible, so we can carry out some basic checks.

Please post a link to the exact location on google street view (see the instructions in the guide linked above), also how many of your children are insured to drive the car?

In the meantime I'll get hold of the parking places order.
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I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor nor a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
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DavidJP

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Re: Parked without parking displaying a ticket - PCN
« Reply #2 on: May 29, 2024, 01:37:47 am »
Quote from: cp8759 on May 27, 2024, 10:38:07 pm
@DavidJP let's start again, unfortunately the information you were given only relates to roadside PCNs and what you have is a notice to owner.

The starting point is that the council's photos do not show a contravention, so as things stand there's no case to answer (but you don't want to tell them that!)

Please read the guidance here and re-post the notice to owner with the number plate and pcn number visible, so we can carry out some basic checks.

Please post a link to the exact location on google street view (see the instructions in the guide linked above), also how many of your children are insured to drive the car?

In the meantime I'll get hold of the parking places order.

Many thanks for the prompt response. We have 3 total individuals insured on the vehicle.

Please find below unredacted Notice to Owner.

Here is the GSV location : Grove Car Park




« Last Edit: May 29, 2024, 01:39:21 am by DavidJP »
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JoCo

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Re: Parked without parking displaying a ticket - PCN
« Reply #3 on: May 29, 2024, 08:59:01 am »

I'd be a bit reluctant to let any of your kids drive the car in future. Or get them to pay any penalty between themselves first. That might help with their memory or truthfulness!

But stick with it here. CP has a habit of finding ways to avoid payment!

 

 
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H C Andersen

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Re: Parked without parking displaying a ticket - PCN
« Reply #4 on: May 29, 2024, 11:26:06 am »
Photos aren't mandatory but in any event the council's online photo evidence shows the car park noticeboard with clear Ts and Cs. The adjudicator would need to reassure themselves that the car was indeed in the stated car park (because the car and sign aren't together in the same shot) and then on this point the council's case would IMO be proved.

However, there's no reference to paying by phone on the noticeboard whereas online states the following:

The Grove Car Park

Pay and display (coins or cards accepted) or cashless parking using RingGo

If this is correct then IMO the contravention is incorrect because display is not a mandatory condition, simply an option. The grounds which cover P&D and cashless parking are:

Parked without payment of the parking charge


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DavidJP

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Re: Parked without parking displaying a ticket - PCN
« Reply #5 on: May 29, 2024, 02:15:26 pm »
Quote from: H C Andersen on May 29, 2024, 11:26:06 am
Photos aren't mandatory but in any event the council's online photo evidence shows the car park noticeboard with clear Ts and Cs. The adjudicator would need to reassure themselves that the car was indeed in the stated car park (because the car and sign aren't together in the same shot) and then on this point the council's case would IMO be proved.

However, there's no reference to paying by phone on the noticeboard whereas online states the following:

The Grove Car Park

Pay and display (coins or cards accepted) or cashless parking using RingGo

If this is correct then IMO the contravention is incorrect because display is not a mandatory condition, simply an option. The grounds which cover P&D and cashless parking are:

Parked without payment of the parking charge

Many thanks - what is the view on the following appeal draft?

Dear Sir/Madam,

I'd like to challenge the PCN on the basis that the contravention did not occur.

The PCN issued states the contravention as "Parked in a car park without clearly displaying a valid pay and display ticket or voucher or parking clock." However, according to the online information provided by Slough Borough Council, The Grove Car Park allows for both pay and display (using coins or cards) and cashless parking via the RingGo service.

The car park noticeboard, as shown in the council's online photo evidence, does not mention the option to pay by phone, whereas the online information clearly states:

**The Grove Car Park**

- Pay and display (coins or cards accepted)
- Cashless parking using RingGo

Since the car park supports cashless parking, displaying a pay and display ticket is not a mandatory requirement but merely one of the payment options available. Therefore, the contravention should be "Parked without payment of the parking charge," which is fundamentally different from the one cited in the PCN.

I kindly request the cancellation of the PCN on the grounds that the contravention cited does not accurately reflect the terms and conditions of parking at The Grove Car Park. The availability of multiple payment methods, including cashless options, renders the requirement to display a ticket optional rather than mandatory.
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DavidJP

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Re: Parked without parking displaying a ticket - PCN
« Reply #6 on: May 31, 2024, 10:15:51 pm »
Hello,

Just wondering if there was a view on my draft appeal? Thank you in advance.
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cp8759

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Re: Parked without parking displaying a ticket - PCN
« Reply #7 on: June 03, 2024, 06:12:19 pm »
Here is The Borough of Slough Off-Street Parking Places (Consolidation) Order 2017.

Here is a revised draft:

Dear Slough Borough Council,

I'd like to challenge the PCN on the basis that the contravention did not occur.

The PCN issued states the contravention as "Parked in a car park without clearly displaying a valid pay and display ticket or voucher or parking clock", however this car park has cashless parking and the contravention is therefore meaningless, I refer you to LINK1

In the circumstances a contravention that might have been alleged could have been "Parked without payment of the parking charge," which is fundamentally different from the one cited in the PCN.

In light of the above the penalty charge must be cancelled.

Yours faithfully,


I will PM you a link to put in the representation, it will redirect to Lydia Russo v Plymouth City Council (PL00004-2401, 12 March 2024) but if you give them the link I'll PM you, we can use the click count to confirm whether they've looked at it or not (obviously do not click on that link yourself as we want the click count to remain at zero). If they don't click on it, we can then prove they've failed to consider all of the evidence. If they say in the rejection that they've considered all the evidence, we've got them for lying as well.

Make sure to send the representation online via the council website and keep a screenshot of the confirmation page.
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I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor nor a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order

DavidJP

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Re: Parked without parking displaying a ticket - PCN
« Reply #8 on: July 10, 2024, 06:35:50 pm »
Quote from: cp8759 on June 03, 2024, 06:12:19 pm
Here is The Borough of Slough Off-Street Parking Places (Consolidation) Order 2017.

Here is a revised draft:

Dear Slough Borough Council,

I'd like to challenge the PCN on the basis that the contravention did not occur.

The PCN issued states the contravention as "Parked in a car park without clearly displaying a valid pay and display ticket or voucher or parking clock", however this car park has cashless parking and the contravention is therefore meaningless, I refer you to LINK1

In the circumstances a contravention that might have been alleged could have been "Parked without payment of the parking charge," which is fundamentally different from the one cited in the PCN.

In light of the above the penalty charge must be cancelled.

Yours faithfully,


I will PM you a link to put in the representation, it will redirect to Lydia Russo v Plymouth City Council (PL00004-2401, 12 March 2024) but if you give them the link I'll PM you, we can use the click count to confirm whether they've looked at it or not (obviously do not click on that link yourself as we want the click count to remain at zero). If they don't click on it, we can then prove they've failed to consider all of the evidence. If they say in the rejection that they've considered all the evidence, we've got them for lying as well.

Make sure to send the representation online via the council website and keep a screenshot of the confirmation page.

Regrettably I have received a notice of rejection from 19th June. Unfortunately it was stuck in my junk/spam folder. Grateful for any further advice. Interesting to see their claim of being unable to see the link we provided.

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cp8759

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Re: Parked without parking displaying a ticket - PCN
« Reply #9 on: July 10, 2024, 07:15:15 pm »
Well at this point you might as well appeal as you have nothing to lose (the penalty stays the same if the appeal is unsuccesful).

I'll drop you a PM in case you'd like me to represent you.
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I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor nor a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order
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