Author Topic: Wandsworth Council, 50L traffic contravention, wimbledon park side jct. inner park road (N) SW19  (Read 134 times)

0 Members and 0 Guests are viewing this topic.

Ballamory

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 2
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
Hi,

I received a penalty charge notice from Wandsworth council with the following alleged traffic contravention:
50L Performing a prohibited turn no left turn (Camera Enforcement)

WIMBLEDON PARK SIDE JCT. INNER PARK ROAD (N) SW19

Date and Time of PCN: 2024-06-26 09:41:22

Here are the first few photos from the evidence:




The photos are snapshots of the video which just shows me making that left turn into that road.

This is the location where the turn was made:
https://maps.app.goo.gl/kSuw7Pax9LFtEB6x8

This is the location where the signage was:
https://maps.app.goo.gl/TyySHnJiTJS4yFn87

The photo and video evidence does not show this signage in any form so there is no evidence of the signage provided during the time of contravention.

I intend to appeal the decision explaining that the signage is not provided in the evidence and ask them to produce it.

My question is do I have a good case here if the sign is clearly not in the evidence photo/videos?
If they do reject my appeal but provide no additional evidence to show the signage at the time of the contravention with my car there, do I then have a good fighting chance to appeal it further with an independent adjudicator?

The first appeal I understand is free essentially as I can still pay the reduced fare but the independent appeal I believe requires you to pay the full charge if rejected which ideally I don't want to push to if my case is weak.

Many thanks in advance.
« Last Edit: July 03, 2024, 10:53:48 pm by cp8759 »

Share on Facebook Share on Twitter


Incandescent

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1872
  • Karma: +50/-0
  • Gender: Male
  • Location: Crewe
    • View Profile
Quote
My question is do I have a good case here if the sign is clearly not in the evidence photo/videos?
No, unfortunately, you don't. The only place where this issue may be explored is at the adjudicators, London Tribunals, but the test of whether the contravention occurred is "on the balance of probabilities". So if your appeal there relies on no evidence, the council can provide some, by  submitting photos in their evidence pack, plus, (usually), a signed witness statement that the signs are in place. So you need something rather stronger, such as sign obscuration, or missing.

So here is the advance sign in GSV dated July 2022
https://maps.app.goo.gl/iXZhqDYFVUzK4rQf8
is this sign still there and visible

Then there are the actual NLT signs.
https://maps.app.goo.gl/y8frEooFEZB3E31x9

So it all seems clear enough. So why did you make the left turn in what seems to be overwhelming evidence the restriction is clearly signed ? Did you just chance your arm, or is there something else we need to know ?

Our usual advice is to submit representations, and there is nothing wrong with them being based on there being nothing in their video that shows the actual signs you contravened, but the real test is at London Tribunals. The council will just bat away anything you say.

Ballamory

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 2
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
Thank you for the prompt response. I'll have to go and drive by tomorrow to see if the signage is still there and visible.

On the topic of why, it wasn't done intentionally. I was quite surprised to see the letter in the post as I don't even remember the incident. Most likely a case of driving on auto pilot and just following whatever my google maps was telling me to do and not looking too closely at the signs.

cp8759

  • Administrator
  • *****
  • Posts: 4876
  • Karma: +113/-4
    • View Profile
@Ballamory as per the guidance here, please post up the PCN and give us a link to the location on Google street view.
I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor nor a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order

deavinanna

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 1
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
I received the same. I see now that the signs were there, but whilst driving and following google maps in morning rush hour, on the way to my dentist appointment, running late as I had to take a new route because the A3 was blocked by backed up traffic resulting from temp lights heading up to Kingston at the previous junction, I honestly just missed the instruction. I will upload my PCN and photos separately.

Simon32

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 1
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
I received the same PCN on the 30/04 and decided to appeal it, i am going to court on the 23/07/24
on the basis of the following:

According to the Traffic Signs Regulations and General Directions 2016 (TSRGD 2016), traffic signs must be clear, visible, and in good condition to be enforceable. Without adequate proof of visibility, the enforcement of the PCN is not valid.

Furthermore, under the Traffic Management Act 2004, the burden of proof lies with the council to demonstrate that the signage was compliant and visible at the time of the contravention. The Google Maps images referenced by the council do not constitute real-time evidence and are therefore insufficient to establish the visibility of the signage on the date in question.

The fact remains, there is zero proof that the sign was visible on the date and time of the contravention

ross24

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 1
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
I have also just had the same fine. I had to go back and check google maps to see the sign. Its not clear if the sign was visible when the contravention occured, but my guess is that wouldnt be enough for them to cancel the fine, although I will contest at this stage.  Even if it was visible, the sign is very far away from the actual turn which does make it easy to catch people out. Not sure if this is also enough reason

Incandescent

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1872
  • Karma: +50/-0
  • Gender: Male
  • Location: Crewe
    • View Profile
Regulation 18 is the key.  An adjudicator has to decide whether the signage gives adequate information on the effect of the traffic order. CLearly this is subjective.

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/1996/2489/regulation/18
Like Like x 1 View List

H C Andersen

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1055
  • Karma: +22/-7
    • View Profile
For anyone turning left into Inner Park Rd at the first turning(there are two) from the A3, GSV shows that there have been more compliant traffic signs than you can shake a stick at in situ and visible since the restriction was introduced in 2018/19. Anyone relying on this defence should set their expectations accordingly IMO.
OP, you are mistaking signs visible in the video with signs being present. Given the camera's location one would not expect to see the applicable signs because if they were visible then indeed it could be argued that they were too close!

OP, the TMA has nothing to do with this restriction or signage which fall under different legislation as shown on the PCN.