Author Topic: Barnet Council Rejected PCN and Blue Badge Misuse (Read 427 times)

username57384 · « **on:** July 09, 2024, 09:51:09 pm »

Hi,
https://i.imgur.com/t3RMX8m.jpeg
https://i.imgur.com/qW5F7DH.jpeg

I received a yellow ticket PCN in February and challenged this (informally I think) via Barnet council website, providing information on the Blue Badge used to park as passenger was disabled and visiting resident in the area. Can’t remember the exact terms of the challenge since it was so long ago but assume I provided the blue badge number. The council has responded nearly 5 months later with this. I’m unsure if I can challenge again. I was planning on writing a email to the address on the letter but they probably won’t reply for another 5 months. I can also challenge again via the PCN website with barnet council. They’ve used vague and ambiguous language and said they’ve rejected the challenge but at the same time the council is upholding the challenge. I also don’t know why this is misuse/fraud and how they can investigate this 5 months later. I still have the blue badge and can provide the name and address of the person who lives at the same address as me and was passenger at the time. Shall I just pay the £65 or risk another challenge? I also no longer own the car but assume the NtO will still come to me if I choose to ignore the letter and then will end up paying double.

Any advice is appreciated.

slapdash · « **Reply #1 on:** July 09, 2024, 10:28:17 pm »

Whose blue badge is it and why do you have it?

username57384 · « **Reply #2 on:** July 09, 2024, 10:30:41 pm »

Quote from: slapdash on July 09, 2024, 10:28:17 pm

Whose blue badge is it and why do you have it?

My mother who was the disabled passenger and was visiting a resident in the area.

She lives at my address.

Incandescent · « **Reply #3 on:** July 10, 2024, 12:18:36 am »

So Barnet Council are as useless as they always have been !

Well, the first thing to say is that the interval between your submission of informal reps and their response 5 months later is totally disgraceful and on its own likely to win an appeal at London Tribunals. In fact, with the limit on serving a Notice to Owner of 6 months from date of contravention, I think they will struggle to serve one to you because they cannot serve an NtO until 28 days have elapsed from the date of their letter.

So my advice is to NOT PAY, and wait for the Notice to Owner. This is sent to the name and address on the V5 Registration Certificate for the car. Is this you, and is it up-to-date and correct ?

Others here will no doubt comment.

Addendum
It would help if you could describe the circumstances leading up to the PCN being found on your car. For instance with my own circumstances, I used to take my mother, (in her late 90s) out and would park conveniently for her to walk a short distance to the location being visited using her Blue Badge. This sometimes required parking on yellow lines, single or double, so I assume you were doing something similar.

slapdash · « **Reply #4 on:** July 10, 2024, 04:57:37 am »

Quote from: username57384 on July 09, 2024, 10:30:41 pm

My mother who was the disabled passenger and was visiting a resident in the area.

She lives at my address.

I assume your mother doesn't drive (which explains why you are generally in possession of the badge).

As per incandescent a fuller description of your actions would be helpful, for example what you did between arriving at your mothers destination with her and the vehicle being removed some time later.

Obviously if you remained with mother until you returned to the car that is absolutely fine.

However, if you left mother and went to do something else without moving the car that isn't really. Authorities are known to follow people sometimes.

If you don't have a copy of your informal reps consider making a GDPR request to obtain them whilst you await the NTO.

Enceladus · « **Reply #5 on:** July 10, 2024, 05:50:50 am »

No yellow lines.

The alleged contravention is Code 12 "Parked in a residents’ or shared use parking place or zone without a valid virtual permit or clearly displaying a valid physical permit or voucher or pay and display ticket issued for that place where required, or without payment of the parking charge".

The Barnet website here suggests that a lawfully displayed BB provides an exemption.

Seems clear cut, I'd do nothing until the NTO arrives. Make a note of when it arrives and keep the envelope.

As per the instructions in the READ THIS FIRST - sticky post at the top of the forum. Please reinstate the vehicle reg from the posted document so we can check the photos and case progression.

H C Andersen · « **Reply #6 on:** July 10, 2024, 09:54:26 am »

With respect, IMO the council's reply is not that a valid BB was being misused as regards the circumstances of parking e.g. who dropped off who, when, why etc, it's the fundamental point that the BB itself was not valid, not because its validity had lapsed but because it was being used fraudulently.

It therefore follows that if the BB was not valid then its use couldn't be.

OP, there's a 26-day window for the authority to serve a NTO on the registered keeper as at 13 Feb. i.e. the end of the 14-day discount(18th July) to 13 Aug(the 6-month point).

As regards the PCN, were you the registered keeper on 13 Feb. and do you still live at this address?

Enceladus · « **Reply #7 on:** July 10, 2024, 10:33:33 am »

Quote from: H C Andersen on July 10, 2024, 09:54:26 am

With respect, IMO the council's reply is not that a valid BB was being misused as regards the circumstances of parking e.g. who dropped off who, when, why etc, it's the fundamental point that the BB itself was not valid, not because its validity had lapsed but because it was being used fraudulently.

It therefore follows that if the BB was not valid then its use couldn't be.

OP, there's a 26-day window for the authority to serve a NTO on the registered keeper as at 13 Feb. i.e. the end of the 14-day discount(18th July) to 13 Aug(the 6-month point).

As regards the PCN, were you the registered keeper on 13 Feb. and do you still live at this address?

That's why I qualified my comment above with the word "lawfully". And until we know that the BB has been "used fraudulently" we'll have to presume that it was being used in accordance with the law and not used fraudulently.

username57384 · « **Reply #8 on:** July 10, 2024, 10:44:54 am »

I am no longer the owner or registered keeper of the car. It was sold a month or so ago and the registered keeper has been updated.

I can’t remember the exact circumstances but it was likely that I parked and left with my mother to visit her relative and returned half an hour or so later to remove the car. I cannot recall if she was with me at this time or if I had driven to the front door (5 second drive) to pick her up.

https://i.imgur.com/0oL4cRo.jpeg

Quote from: Incandescent on July 10, 2024, 12:18:36 am

So Barnet Council are as useless as they always have been !

Well, the first thing to say is that the interval between your submission of informal reps and their response 5 months later is totally disgraceful and on its own likely to win an appeal at London Tribunals. In fact, with the limit on serving a Notice to Owner of 6 months from date of contravention, I think they will struggle to serve one to you because they cannot serve an NtO until 28 days have elapsed from the date of their letter.

So my advice is to NOT PAY, and wait for the Notice to Owner. This is sent to the name and address on the V5 Registration Certificate for the car. Is this you, and is it up-to-date and correct ?

Others here will no doubt comment.

Addendum
It would help if you could describe the circumstances leading up to the PCN being found on your car. For instance with my own circumstances, I used to take my mother, (in her late 90s) out and would park conveniently for her to walk a short distance to the location being visited using her Blue Badge. This sometimes required parking on yellow lines, single or double, so I assume you were doing something similar.

username57384 · « **Reply #9 on:** July 10, 2024, 10:45:59 am »

Quote from: slapdash on July 10, 2024, 04:57:37 am

Quote from: username57384 on July 09, 2024, 10:30:41 pm
My mother who was the disabled passenger and was visiting a resident in the area.

She lives at my address.

I assume your mother doesn't drive (which explains why you are generally in possession of the badge).

As per incandescent a fuller description of your actions would be helpful, for example what you did between arriving at your mothers destination with her and the vehicle being removed some time later.

Obviously if you remained with mother until you returned to the car that is absolutely fine.

However, if you left mother and went to do something else without moving the car that isn't really. Authorities are known to follow people sometimes.

If you don't have a copy of your informal reps consider making a GDPR request to obtain them whilst you await the NTO.

Who do I write to/call in order to make a GDPR request?

username57384 · « **Reply #10 on:** July 10, 2024, 10:46:31 am »

Quote from: Enceladus on July 10, 2024, 05:50:50 am

No yellow lines.

The alleged contravention is Code 12 "Parked in a residents’ or shared use parking place or zone without a valid virtual permit or clearly displaying a valid physical permit or voucher or pay and display ticket issued for that place where required, or without payment of the parking charge".

The Barnet website here suggests that a lawfully displayed BB provides an exemption.

Seems clear cut, I'd do nothing until the NTO arrives. Make a note of when it arrives and keep the envelope.

As per the instructions in the READ THIS FIRST - sticky post at the top of the forum. Please reinstate the vehicle reg from the posted document so we can check the photos and case progression.

https://i.imgur.com/0oL4cRo.jpeg

username57384 · « **Reply #11 on:** July 10, 2024, 10:48:06 am »

Quote from: H C Andersen on July 10, 2024, 09:54:26 am

With respect, IMO the council's reply is not that a valid BB was being misused as regards the circumstances of parking e.g. who dropped off who, when, why etc, it's the fundamental point that the BB itself was not valid, not because its validity had lapsed but because it was being used fraudulently.

It therefore follows that if the BB was not valid then its use couldn't be.

OP, there's a 26-day window for the authority to serve a NTO on the registered keeper as at 13 Feb. i.e. the end of the 14-day discount(18th July) to 13 Aug(the 6-month point).

As regards the PCN, were you the registered keeper on 13 Feb. and do you still live at this address?

I was registered keeper on this date and I do still live at this address.

slapdash · « **Reply #12 on:** July 10, 2024, 10:57:15 am »

Quote from: username57384 on July 10, 2024, 10:45:59 am

Who do I write to/call in order to make a GDPR request?

For the subject access request, see here.

https://www.barnet.gov.uk/your-council/open-data-and-information-requests/make-subject-access-request

If you gave a copy of your informal reps you can ensure the formal rep remains consistent with them.

username57384 · « **Reply #13 on:** July 10, 2024, 11:08:04 am »

My daughter has reminded me that the car was broken into and has sent me these photos dated 6 February 2024. A week or so before the PCN.

https://i.imgur.com/YnQAjiL.jpeg

https://i.imgur.com/Yt7SpIT.jpeg

A crime reference number was obtained from the police because our badge was actually stolen. The representation to Barnet council would’ve included the CRN and the Blue Badge number of the passenger. I don’t know whether or not we had the BB replacement by this time because the photos taken by the CEO do not show the dashboard clearly. The BB is usually presented on the drivers side dash, near the windshield.

Does this change anything? If so, is it best to cough up the money now with the discount?

Apologies for the lack of mention before, my daughter is the one who mostly drives the car and I only use it occasionally when I am driving my mother.

Quote from: slapdash on July 10, 2024, 10:57:15 am

Quote from: username57384 on July 10, 2024, 10:45:59 am
Who do I write to/call in order to make a GDPR request?

For the subject access request, see here.

https://www.barnet.gov.uk/your-council/open-data-and-information-requests/make-subject-access-request

If you gave a copy of your informal reps you can ensure the formal rep remains consistent with them.

Incandescent · « **Reply #14 on:** July 10, 2024, 11:59:17 am »

Oh dear, oh dear. Why do we never, ever, get the full story at the start. So in actual fact there was no Blue Badge on display when the PCN was served, and in your representations you gave a BB number that in all likelihood is the one that was stolen.
What a Pot Mess !

However, Barnet are still remiss in taking 5 months to reply to your informal representations.

I think we need the full story before any further advice is given. Certainly no more from me until we get it, sorry.

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Author Topic: Barnet Council Rejected PCN and Blue Badge Misuse (Read 427 times)

username57384

Barnet Council Rejected PCN and Blue Badge Misuse

slapdash

Re: Barnet Council Rejected PCN and Blue Badge Misuse

username57384

Re: Barnet Council Rejected PCN and Blue Badge Misuse

Incandescent

Re: Barnet Council Rejected PCN and Blue Badge Misuse

slapdash

Re: Barnet Council Rejected PCN and Blue Badge Misuse

Enceladus

Re: Barnet Council Rejected PCN and Blue Badge Misuse

H C Andersen

Re: Barnet Council Rejected PCN and Blue Badge Misuse

Enceladus

Re: Barnet Council Rejected PCN and Blue Badge Misuse

username57384

Re: Barnet Council Rejected PCN and Blue Badge Misuse

username57384

Re: Barnet Council Rejected PCN and Blue Badge Misuse

username57384

Re: Barnet Council Rejected PCN and Blue Badge Misuse

username57384

Re: Barnet Council Rejected PCN and Blue Badge Misuse

slapdash

Re: Barnet Council Rejected PCN and Blue Badge Misuse

username57384

Re: Barnet Council Rejected PCN and Blue Badge Misuse

Incandescent

Re: Barnet Council Rejected PCN and Blue Badge Misuse