Author Topic: Barnet Council - 31J Stopping in Box Junction - Edgware Bus Station Entrance (northbound)  (Read 509 times)

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I would like to know from members on this forum whether they believe I have legal grounds to appeal a PCN I
recently received from my local council.

The PCN was issued for the following traffic contravention - 31J Entering and stopping in a box junction when
prohibited.

The photographic evidence (together with the time stamps) provided by the Council is shown below.

Picture 1 - 13:58:58
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Picture 2 - 13:59:09
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Picture 3 - 13:59:09
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Picture 4 - 13:59:10
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I challenged this PCN as follows

Quote
I would like to challenge the liability for PCN AG47146723 on the basis that the alleged contravention did not occur. I did not enter and stop in a box junction when prohibited.

1) In the frames you have provided - 2024-11-12 13:58:09 and 2024-11-12 13:59:10 - the exit was not blocked by stationary traffic when I entered the box junction as the bus and the traffic ahead of the box junction was still moving.

2) On the date the PCN was issued - 12/11/2024 - I believe there was a set of temporary traffic lights situated beyond the box junction on Station Road which were green when I entered the box junction.

3) My rear red brake lights were not on when my car was photographed in the box junction behind the bus in frames 2024-11-12 13:59:09 and 2024-11-12 13:59:10 - my car was, therefore, still in motion when the PCN was issued.


The Council rejected my challenge - their response is in the post below.

I also attach the PCN certificate and the rejection letter from the Council.



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Follow up from above post
« Reply #1 on: »
Here is the response from the Council to my challenge

Quote
We have carefully considered your comments and decided not to cancel your PCN.

You have stated that there was temporary traffic lights, please be advised that traffic lights,
temporary or otherwise have no bearing on box junction criteria as box junctions are in place to
prevent gridlock and ease congestion. As such, if the light is green, but the exit is not clear
motorists must wait behind the box, until they can drive through without stopping.

The PCN was issued because your vehicle entered the box junction with the exit lane not being
clear and stopped due to the presence of a stationary vehicle in front, a bus, which entered the
restricted area prior to your vehicle. A contravention occurs if the motorist enters the box
junction and has insufficient space at the other side to exit without stopping. A contravention is
committed if any part of the vehicle is left stationary within the confines of the box junction
regardless of the length of time involved.

The CCTV footage shows your vehicle travelling through the box, following the vehicle ahead,
without slowing or waiting to ensure your exit route or lane was clear prior to entering.
Please be advised that motorists should not follow the vehicle in front as it may stop and
prevent their exit from the box junction.

The Highway Code Rule 174 states: "Box junctions. These have criss-crossed yellow lines
painted on the road (see 'Road markings'). You MUST NOT enter the box until your exit road or
lane is clear. However, you may enter the box and wait when you want to turn right and are
only stopped from doing so by oncoming traffic, or by other vehicles waiting to turn right. At
signalled roundabouts you MUST NOT enter the box unless you can cross over it completely
without stopping."

It is the practice of some drivers to follow other vehicles into box junctions, on the assumption
that the traffic will continue to flow smoothly, so that their own vehicle will not have to stop in
the box junction. However, the only way a driver can ensure that their vehicle does not breach
the above contravention, is by not entering the box junction until a space large enough to
accommodate their vehicle can be seen beyond the junction markings.

The Council would like to refer you to the following web link (Online Media), to where you can
view the CCTV evidence of the contravention; as well as the photographic images;

Is the Council right about this? Or should I appeal the decision to the independent Environment and Traffic
Adjudicator? Bear in mind that if I appeal and lose then the penalty charge I have to pay would increase from
£65.00 to £130.00.

I would be grateful for any advice you can offer on this forum.

Please let me know if you need any further information

John Taylor







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The video is the evidence: please download it and post here.


Quote from: andy_foster
Mick, you are a very, very bad man

PCN Video Evidence
« Reply #5 on: »
I also managed to download the video evidence in MP4 format - do you need me to send it to you or upload it somewhere?

Kind regards

John

Reply to John U.K. and Mick R
« Reply #6 on: »
nope

I have uploaded the video evidence in MP4 format as a zipfile, please let me know if you can now view it.
Thank you John

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« Last Edit: December 15, 2024, 05:46:35 pm by taylorjohn21 »

You don't seem to have posted the PCN, so please do so. Only redact name and address. We can go and look at the video using your PCN Number and car reg, its easy-peasy.  The offence occurs at the point of entry into the box, and the video must show this. Their rejection is the usual Fob-Off, I'm afraid.


Having now seen the video, I don't think it supports your case. You entered the box just when the bus was turning in front of you at the other end of the box, and there was no space available for you to leave the box. However, there may well be a 'technical' appeal case based on council management of the enforcement process and the content of the PCN. Hippocrates is ace at finding these, much to the chagrin of the councils that lose their cases !

So wait a bit for others to contribute.

Reply to Incandescent
« Reply #10 on: »
You don't seem to have posted the PCN, so please do so. Only redact name and address. We can go and look at the video using your PCN Number and car reg, its easy-peasy.  The offence occurs at the point of entry into the box, and the video must show this. Their rejection is the usual Fob-Off, I'm afraid.

The PCN is AG47146723
The Car reg is LM09 LAO

Kind regards

John

no stationary vehicles on entry of box
Quote from: andy_foster
Mick, you are a very, very bad man

no stationary vehicles on entry of box
Indeed not, but no space for the OP to exit either.

is that box even at a junction?
Quote from: andy_foster
Mick, you are a very, very bad man

is that box even at a junction?


permitted outside fire, ambulance and police stations: see
https://www.yellowboxes.co.uk/1-the-box