Author Topic: Barnet 31J PCN  (Read 185 times)

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iHad

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Barnet 31J PCN
« on: September 29, 2024, 12:13:02 pm »
Hello everyone,

Got a PCN yesterday through the post.

I think that I`ve been wrongly charged because the one in front of me had space but they stopped without the need to stop( see edited picture please).also, I didnt stop long, a few seconds only and only the rear tires touching.
my car is the grey toyota RAV4.
is it worth challenging or not? any advice appricated please.
thanks in advance.

https://sendvid.com/0oimz5oh

https://ibb.co/3pxsYkH

https://ibb.co/pzBgtXr

https://ibb.co/sJYHsvM

https://ibb.co/Hq0G9sr

https://ibb.co/wM3bP0q

https://ibb.co/nswJr2P

https://ibb.co/23TSbsZ

https://ibb.co/NjZDt9c

https://ibb.co/q1BSySv

https://maps.app.goo.gl/PqfyQkWhTKG9Xp7E9
« Last Edit: September 29, 2024, 12:24:55 pm by iHad »

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MrChips

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Re: Barnet 31J PCN
« Reply #1 on: September 29, 2024, 02:13:36 pm »
Turning right exemption may be in play here. Will depend on whether the car you stopped behind was stationary while waiting to complete a right turn.

iHad

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Re: Barnet 31J PCN
« Reply #2 on: September 29, 2024, 04:06:00 pm »
Thanks for your reply, but I don’t think the turning right exemption will work here because there are no oncoming cars.

MrChips

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Re: Barnet 31J PCN
« Reply #3 on: September 29, 2024, 06:45:12 pm »
There don't have to be.  Exemption is worded as follows:

"The prohibition ... does not ...apply to a person who—

(a)causes a vehicle to enter the box junction for the purpose of turning right; and

(b)stops the vehicle within the box junction for so long as the vehicle is prevented from completing the right turn by an oncoming vehicle or other vehicle which is stationary whilst waiting to complete a right turn."

The word "or" is very important.

iHad

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Re: Barnet 31J PCN
« Reply #4 on: September 29, 2024, 08:18:48 pm »
thanks for your reply and I did made a challenge based on your advice. I`d appriciate it if you can take a look and correct to me if I need to change something;


Dear Sir / Madam
Re:
I am challenging this pcn (AG46648067) dated 14/09/2024 on the following grounds:
-The prohibition of entering the yellow junction box doesn`t applies to a person who:
(A) Causes a vehicle to enter the junction box for the purpose of turning right;
And
(B) Stops the vehicle within the junction box for so long as the vehicle is prevented from completing the right turn by an oncoming vehicle or other vehicle which is stationary whilst waiting to complete a right turn.
To quote from the highway code and the TFL website:
“You must not enter the box until your exit road or lane is clear. HOWEVER, you may enter the box and wait when you want to turn right, and are only stopped from doing so by oncoming traffic, or by other vehicles waiting to turn right.
Law TSRGD regs 10(1) & 29(2)”
“You can stop in a yellow box junction when turning right if you are prevented from turning by oncoming traffic or by other vehicles waiting to turn right”
For the reason mentioned above, I am requesting that this pcn to be waived or cancelled.
I look forward to hearing from you.

Yours faithfully,

Incandescent

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Re: Barnet 31J PCN
« Reply #5 on: September 29, 2024, 08:31:07 pm »
I'm afraid you'll just have to submit those representations and see what reply then come up with. So submit it, and post up their response when you get it. I'm not sure from the video if you have a slam-dunk appeal, but it looks a fairly robust case to me. If the actions of the vehicles match the exemptions in the regulations then you should win.

iHad

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Re: Barnet 31J PCN
« Reply #6 on: September 29, 2024, 08:45:58 pm »
thanks.

should I add those 2 photos as an evidence for the in front of me cars stopped without the need to stop and I needed to wait for them ?

https://ibb.co/pzBgtXr


https://ibb.co/Hq0G9sr

MrChips

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Re: Barnet 31J PCN
« Reply #7 on: September 29, 2024, 09:29:52 pm »
I wouldn't bother as it shouldn't make any difference. You enter a box junction at your own risk. If a car further up the chain stops prematurely and you end up stuck then that's not really a defence (or else box junctions would effectively serve no purpose).

MrChips

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Re: Barnet 31J PCN
« Reply #8 on: September 29, 2024, 09:44:37 pm »
Re your draft representations, I think these are framed correctly.  However, having seen this sort of thing many times before, I suspect Barnet will refuse these  by focussing on the absence of any oncoming vehicles.  Therefore I'd be tempted to remove reference to oncoming vehicles and just refer to the exemption with respect to other vehicles turning right, as follows.  If they then reply saying you are relying on oncoming vehicles, that might open up an additional defence of failing to consider...

Dear Sir / Madam

Re: AG46648067

I am challenging this PCN dated 14/09/2024 on the following grounds:

As per the TSRGD 2016, the prohibition of entering a yellow junction box doesn`t apply to a person who:
(A) Causes a vehicle to enter the box junction for the purpose of turning right;
And
(B) Stops the vehicle within the box junction for so long as the vehicle is prevented from completing the right turn by another vehicle which is stationary whilst waiting to complete a right turn.

To further quote from the Highway Code and the TFL website:
“You must not enter the box until your exit road or lane is clear. HOWEVER, you may enter the box and wait when you want to turn right, and are only stopped from doing so by ... other vehicles waiting to turn right.
Law TSRGD regs 10(1) & 29(2)”

“You can stop in a yellow box junction when turning right if you are prevented from turning by ... other vehicles waiting to turn right”

The video evidence shows that I entered the box junction for the purpose of turning right, and stopped in the box junction only for so long as I was waiting behind another vehicle which was stationary waiting to complete the same right turn onto Regents Park Road.  For this reason, I am requesting that this PCN be cancelled.

I look forward to hearing from you.

Yours faithfully,

stamfordman

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Re: Barnet 31J PCN
« Reply #9 on: September 30, 2024, 12:43:14 pm »
The issue here is, are you entitled to move into the box to turn right even if you can see/can't see the exit road is blocked. The correct thing to do is probably to stay on your side of the road and not block traffic from the right and complete the turn when you can in line with other traffic moving across the junction.

Someone had a right go at Barnet trying to find out the enforcement policy here given the road markings show right turn from both lanes but the exit merges almost at once into one lane:

https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/yellow_box_junction_nether_st_ba

Mr Mustard may know more.

EDIT

View from @mrmustard - but no silver bullet:

https://lbbspending.blogspot.com/2022/05/barnet-put-pcn-camera-at-goldmine.html


« Last Edit: September 30, 2024, 01:44:47 pm by stamfordman »

iHad

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Re: Barnet 31J PCN
« Reply #10 on: September 30, 2024, 05:08:30 pm »
Thanks @stamfordman and @MrChips for your replies. Should I add the link of the freedom of information request link :

https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/yellow_box_junction_nether_st_ba

That @stamfordman sent to prove the confusion and the wrong issuing of the PCN because of the merging of 2 lanes into one lane and the hindering of seeing a clear exit, or should I just send the last version of the challenge that @MrChips wrote to me yesterday!!

Many many thanks for your input and help

stamfordman

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Re: Barnet 31J PCN
« Reply #11 on: September 30, 2024, 09:55:57 pm »
You can say you are aware there is concern about the road layout going from two lanes to one as per the FOI request and Mr Mustard's observations. His name is Derek Dishman and he is very well known to Barnet parking. Email him first at mrmustard@zoho.com as he has looked at tribunal decisions here.

Add this into Mr Chips' draft.

stamfordman

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Re: Barnet 31J PCN
« Reply #12 on: September 30, 2024, 09:57:18 pm »
Also, amend the thread title by adding the location - Ballards Lane and Nether Street box junction.

mickR

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Re: Barnet 31J PCN
« Reply #13 on: October 01, 2024, 12:17:17 am »
I'm not sure he can change thread title after this amount of time. might have to ask a mod to do it.
« Last Edit: October 01, 2024, 12:24:32 am by mickR »

mrmustard

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Re: Barnet 31J PCN
« Reply #14 on: October 03, 2024, 04:44:07 am »
I am inclined to think this is a contravention because at the point of entering the box there isn't a clear exit space.

I turned right here yesterday, I made sure I could get out, from the right hand lane, before starting my turn. I also had an eye on the left hand lane to ensure I couldn't be cut up by a car taking my space. We all need to drive defensively in yellow boxes.
I help you pro bono (for free). I only ask that a donation is made to the North London Hospice if you can afford it and if you win. I have an 85% success rate across 2,000 PCNs but some PCNs can't be beaten and I will tell you if your case looks hopeless.