3. PCN for illegal left turn
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ashirusnw

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Re: PCN for illegal left turn
« Reply #15 on: October 18, 2023, 01:14:19 pm »
And finally (dunno if relevant):

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cp8759

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Re: PCN for illegal left turn
« Reply #16 on: October 20, 2023, 12:13:52 am »
None of the documents you have found are relevant, but well done for trying.

Firstly ownership of the land is irrelevant

The Side Roads Order reals with, well, side roads. We're looking for the principal order, which originally was The GLA Roads Designation Order 2000
as amended by The GLA Roads Designation (Amendment) Order 2000 and The Greater London Authority (Miscellaneous Amendments) Order 2001.

However these have almost certainly all been replaced many times over, the principal order for most boroughs is The GLA Roads (No.3) Designation Order 2008 which abolishes The GLA Roads (No.2) Designation Order 2007, but does not designate any roads within Barnet as far as I can see.

It follows that there must be a separate order covering Barnet, which is what we're now waiting for.

The fact that appeals have been lost at London Tribunals is irrelevant, I cannot imagine anyone has previously take this point, and the adjudicator can only allow an appeal based on the issues raised by the appellant. An adjudicator cannot go digging for issues to help one party or the other, or else they'd hardly be independent.
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I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor nor a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order

ashirusnw

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Re: PCN for illegal left turn
« Reply #17 on: October 20, 2023, 01:44:22 am »
The 2008 order does include roads in Barnet on pages 5-8 but incorrectly under the heading of "GLA Roads in London Borough of Barking & Dagenham" which is given twice ! (probably drafted with wrong/duplicated heading because Barnet following Barking next in alphabetical order)
« Last Edit: October 20, 2023, 01:46:53 am by ashirusnw »
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cp8759

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Re: PCN for illegal left turn
« Reply #18 on: October 20, 2023, 11:39:05 pm »
Quote from: ashirusnw on October 20, 2023, 01:44:22 am
The 2008 order does include roads in Barnet on pages 5-8 but incorrectly under the heading of "GLA Roads in London Borough of Barking & Dagenham" which is given twice ! (probably drafted with wrong/duplicated heading because Barnet following Barking next in alphabetical order)
So it does!

I think this is the relevant entry (my bold):

NORTH CIRCULAR ROAD (A406) OFF SLIP ROAD, the south side from a point 3 metres south-west of the extended north easternmost building line of Garden Court Hotel, Tilling Road to its roundabout junction with the unnamed M1 Motorway slip roads

So we don't have to worry about the end of red route sign being on the boundary or anything of that sort, because all of Tilling Road is a GLA road. This being the case, the borough cannot enforce without the prior written consent of Transport for London (which they won't have because they won't have bothered reading the legislation).

Here are a few cases won on this point:

William Samuel v London Borough of Lewisham (2220837736, 13 December 2022)
Commercial Plant Services Ltd v London Borough of Lambeth (2230127577, 15 March 2023)
Maurice Luftig v London Borough of Hackney (2230151491, 15 April 2023)
Robert Greens v London Borough of Lewisham (2230366024, 11 September 2023)

Let us know when you get the rejection and I'll sort out the appeal for you. The outcome cannot guaranteed, but what I can tell you is that this argument has never lost.
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I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor nor a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order

ashirusnw

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Re: PCN for illegal left turn
« Reply #19 on: October 24, 2023, 09:37:20 pm »
Quote from: cp8759 on October 20, 2023, 11:39:05 pm
Quote from: ashirusnw on October 20, 2023, 01:44:22 am
The 2008 order does include roads in Barnet on pages 5-8 but incorrectly under the heading of "GLA Roads in London Borough of Barking & Dagenham" which is given twice ! (probably drafted with wrong/duplicated heading because Barnet following Barking next in alphabetical order)
So it does!

I think this is the relevant entry (my bold):

NORTH CIRCULAR ROAD (A406) OFF SLIP ROAD, the south side from a point 3 metres south-west of the extended north easternmost building line of Garden Court Hotel, Tilling Road to its roundabout junction with the unnamed M1 Motorway slip roads

So we don't have to worry about the end of red route sign being on the boundary or anything of that sort, because all of Tilling Road is a GLA road. This being the case, the borough cannot enforce without the prior written consent of Transport for London (which they won't have because they won't have bothered reading the legislation).

Here are a few cases won on this point:

William Samuel v London Borough of Lewisham (2220837736, 13 December 2022)
Commercial Plant Services Ltd v London Borough of Lambeth (2230127577, 15 March 2023)
Maurice Luftig v London Borough of Hackney (2230151491, 15 April 2023)
Robert Greens v London Borough of Lewisham (2230366024, 11 September 2023)

Let us know when you get the rejection and I'll sort out the appeal for you. The outcome cannot guaranteed, but what I can tell you is that this argument has never lost.

Thank you so much, I'll keep you posted
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cp8759

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Re: PCN for illegal left turn
« Reply #20 on: February 07, 2024, 03:04:07 pm »
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I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor nor a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order

Hippocrates

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Re: PCN for illegal left turn
« Reply #21 on: February 08, 2024, 04:24:04 am »
Yet another incredulous situation.  Well done.
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There are known knowns which, had we known, we would never have wished to know. It is known that this also applies to the known unknowns. However, when one attends a hearing, Mr Rumsfeld's idea that there are also unknown unknowns fails to apply because, anyone who is in the know, knows that unknown unknowns are purely a deception otherwise known as an aleatory experience or also known as a lottery. I know that I know this to be a fact and, in this knowledge, I know that I am fully prepared to present my case but, paradoxically, in full knowledge that the unknown unknowns may well apply.
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ἔοικα γοῦν τούτου γε σμικρῷ τινι αὐτῷ τούτῳ σοφώτερος εἶναι, ὅτι ἃ μὴ οἶδα οὐδὲ οἴομαι ε

DH

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Re: PCN for illegal left turn
« Reply #22 on: February 12, 2024, 07:43:22 pm »
My wife was fined a few months ago for the left turn onto Tilling Road and we paid the fine. Is it too late to challenge this, as Barnet says you cannot appeal once you’ve paid…?
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Incandescent

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Re: PCN for illegal left turn
« Reply #23 on: February 12, 2024, 10:40:49 pm »
Quote from: DH on February 12, 2024, 07:43:22 pm
My wife was fined a few months ago for the left turn onto Tilling Road and we paid the fine. Is it too late to challenge this, as Barnet says you cannot appeal once you’ve paid…?
Too late.
Why didn't you appeal at the time ?
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DH

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Re: PCN for illegal left turn
« Reply #24 on: February 13, 2024, 09:04:37 am »
I didn't think we had grounds for appeal at the time, only asked the question when I saw this thread...
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Incandescent

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Re: PCN for illegal left turn
« Reply #25 on: February 13, 2024, 09:11:12 am »
Quote from: DH on February 13, 2024, 09:04:37 am
I didn't think we had grounds for appeal at the time, only asked the question when I saw this thread...
OK, so bookmark this site for the future.
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Hippocrates

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Re: PCN for illegal left turn
« Reply #26 on: February 13, 2024, 10:47:56 am »
Quote from: DH on February 13, 2024, 09:04:37 am
I didn't think we had grounds for appeal at the time, only asked the question when I saw this thread...

Complain to the Council Leader.    cllr.b.rawlings@barnet.gov.uk
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There are known knowns which, had we known, we would never have wished to know. It is known that this also applies to the known unknowns. However, when one attends a hearing, Mr Rumsfeld's idea that there are also unknown unknowns fails to apply because, anyone who is in the know, knows that unknown unknowns are purely a deception otherwise known as an aleatory experience or also known as a lottery. I know that I know this to be a fact and, in this knowledge, I know that I am fully prepared to present my case but, paradoxically, in full knowledge that the unknown unknowns may well apply.
"Hippocrates"

ἔοικα γοῦν τούτου γε σμικρῷ τινι αὐτῷ τούτῳ σοφώτερος εἶναι, ὅτι ἃ μὴ οἶδα οὐδὲ οἴομαι ε

sideadder

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Re: PCN for illegal left turn
« Reply #27 on: September 02, 2024, 09:14:32 pm »
Today I received a PCN for this same offence - letter looks the same to the original post.

Given the successful outcome for ashirusnw and cp8759, is there any advice you can give for what to write to Barnet in terms of representations?

Thanks in advance

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Hippocrates

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Re: PCN for illegal left turn
« Reply #28 on: September 02, 2024, 09:31:31 pm »
Quote from: sideadder on September 02, 2024, 09:14:32 pm
Today I received a PCN for this same offence - letter looks the same to the original post.

Given the successful outcome for ashirusnw and cp8759, is there any advice you can give for what to write to Barnet in terms of representations?

Thanks in advance
Yes. Please start your own thread.
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There are known knowns which, had we known, we would never have wished to know. It is known that this also applies to the known unknowns. However, when one attends a hearing, Mr Rumsfeld's idea that there are also unknown unknowns fails to apply because, anyone who is in the know, knows that unknown unknowns are purely a deception otherwise known as an aleatory experience or also known as a lottery. I know that I know this to be a fact and, in this knowledge, I know that I am fully prepared to present my case but, paradoxically, in full knowledge that the unknown unknowns may well apply.
"Hippocrates"

ἔοικα γοῦν τούτου γε σμικρῷ τινι αὐτῷ τούτῳ σοφώτερος εἶναι, ὅτι ἃ μὴ οἶδα οὐδὲ οἴομαι ε
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  3. PCN for illegal left turn