Author Topic: Barking & Dagenham - 47J - Stopped in a bus stop - Dagenham Heathway  (Read 2155 times)

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Cross-posted from pepipoo (thanks cp8759!): http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showtopic=150625

Hi all,

As per title - I've received a PCN today for stopping in a bus stop. To be clear, I hold my hands up on this one - totally at fault, I was dropping off a neighbour on the way through, and accept I should not have stopped at the bus stop. But there's no love lost between me and the LBBD council, so looking for something to avoid having to give them any money.

PCN, all pages:
https://1drv.ms/f/s!AtrfspPXTIQKga8pY3cMMqhy5DDmig

Google Street View of location:
https://maps.app.goo.gl/THzyR6ttukZb84qh7?g_st=ic

Any advice appreciated - even if the advice is just "stop being a prat, pay the reduced fine and don't stop in any more bus stops!"

Thanks,
Kirbs

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Re: Barking & Dagenham - 47J - Stopped in a bus stop - Dagenham Heathway
« Reply #1 on: »
Well the contravention looks banged-to-rights:



That being said, three issues arise:

1) There appear to be 13 bus stops on this road, and the PCN doesn't tell you which one it is,
2) There is no evidence of the mandatory yellow plate in the council video, and
3) We have no idea if the camera is approved for parking enforcement.

In the first instance I'd make a basic vague locus representation:

Dear London Borough of Barking and Dagenham,

I challenge liability for PCN BZ99407252 because the alleged contravention did not occur. I further bing a collateral challenge on the basis that the PCN does not adequately particularise the grounds on which the penalty charge was issued, because the location is not specified with adequate precision.

I have checked and there are some 14 bus stops on Heathay, and the penalty charge does not specify where exactly the contravention is alleged to have taken place. It is well established that the PCN must state not just what the alleged contravention is, but also where the alleged contravention is said to have taken place, and the penalty charge notice served in this instance is defective in this regard.

It follows that the PCN must be cancelled.

Yours faithfully

In the meantime I'll try and find out the make and model of the camera.
I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor or a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193 and I abide by the SPMF service standards.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order

Re: Barking & Dagenham - 47J - Stopped in a bus stop - Dagenham Heathway
« Reply #2 on: »
Thanks, much appreciated. I'll get the suggested challenge text sent off to B&D Council and see what their response is - knowing them, I'm guessing it will be a swift rejection.

I'm assuming that not mentioning the other grounds at this stage of challenge doesn't rule them out from use later on, if needed?

Re: Barking & Dagenham - 47J - Stopped in a bus stop - Dagenham Heathway
« Reply #3 on: »
That's correct, you can always add more stuff later on.
I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor or a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193 and I abide by the SPMF service standards.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order

Re: Barking & Dagenham - 47J - Stopped in a bus stop - Dagenham Heathway
« Reply #4 on: »
An update: I have gone onto the PCN to challenge it, and before I can enter text to support the challenge, LBBD have required me to select a reason for challenge. Screenshots uploaded into the folder with the PCN pictures, and text copy-pasted below.

Would this affect the strength of a challenge? I could say "picking up or dropping off a passenger" and it is very clear that I was doing that from the video evidence, but does that prejudice the claim that the contravention did not occur?

ETA: Upon reading the whole list, it stinks of a fishing expedition. "I was unaware of the rules" and "I only stopped for a few minutes" - I know for a fact the council don't accept these as legitimate excuses, so why are they on the list, with the implication that they are?

Parking
Stopped on a restricted bus stop or stand (Camera Enforcement)

We will consider your appeal according to our appeals policy. If your reason for appeal is not listed in the policy, we are unlikely to accept it. However we will still consider your case individually.


Pay and display (P&D) or Cashless
The following circumstances are relating to scenarios involving P&D tickets or cashless parking sessions.

Select a reason:
 I was in a rush and forgot to pay 
 I went to get change 
 My card payment was declined 
Permits
The following circumstances are relating to scenarios involving parking permits.

Select a reason:
 I had a permit 
Blue Badge
The following circumstances are relating to scenarios involving Blue Badges

Select a reason:
 I had a Blue Badge 
Emergency / beyond driver's control
Reasons that relate to something unexpected happening to the motorist that must be seen to immediately

Select a reason:
 I became unwell while driving 
 I parked at the location because I needed the toilet 
 I stopped because of an emergency situation 
 I was delayed due to a medical or urgent condition 
 My passenger became unwell while I was driving 
 My vehicle had broken down 
 My vehicle was cloned 
 My vehicle was stolen 
PCN wrongly / unfairly issued
Reasons where it may appear that the PCN was issued unfairly or incorrectly.

Select a reason:
 I only stopped for a few minutes 
 I was not at the location on the day 
 I was not served the PCN 
 I was not the driver 
 I was not the owner / keeper of the vehicle 
 I was only a few minutes late back to my vehicle 
 I was unaware of the rules 
 My vehicle was not outside the bay   
 The vehicle was on hire to someone else 
 There was nowhere else to park 
Other
Other reasons we have received that do not fall into one of the above categories.

Select a reason:
 A friend / family member recently passed away 
 I didn't see any signs or lines 
 I was loading / unloading at the time 
 I was picking up / dropping off a passenger 
 My vehicle is a taxi 
 The owner of the vehicle has passed away 
None of the above
If none of the above reasons apply, and you wish to challenge your PCN, please select below:

Select a reason:
 Any other reason 
« Last Edit: July 13, 2023, 08:44:47 am by Kirbs »

Re: Barking & Dagenham - 47J - Stopped in a bus stop - Dagenham Heathway
« Reply #5 on: »
Just select "any other reason".
I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor or a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193 and I abide by the SPMF service standards.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order

Re: Barking & Dagenham - 47J - Stopped in a bus stop - Dagenham Heathway
« Reply #6 on: »
Just got this response back from the council:

The Camera details as follows:
Make and Model Bosch MIC 7502 IP camera 258 The Heathway (Opposite Heathway Station)

I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor or a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193 and I abide by the SPMF service standards.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order

Re: Barking & Dagenham - 47J - Stopped in a bus stop - Dagenham Heathway
« Reply #7 on: »
Thanks cp8759. Is that an approved make and model for the camera?

For the record, the challenge was sent off via the website using "any other reason" and your wording as advised - I have yet to receive any response from the council. I suppose it's just a waiting game now...

Re: Barking & Dagenham - 47J - Stopped in a bus stop - Dagenham Heathway
« Reply #8 on: »
Thanks cp8759. Is that an approved make and model for the camera?
It depends which certificate they rely on at the tribunal.
I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor or a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193 and I abide by the SPMF service standards.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order

Re: Barking & Dagenham - 47J - Stopped in a bus stop - Dagenham Heathway
« Reply #9 on: »
As predicted, rejection from the council received in yesterday's post. Pictures uploaded to the folder, but text also reproduced below:

***

Notice of Rejection of Representation
Traffic Management Act 2004

(details of PCN and appeal number)

Your vehicle was recorded by our CCTV Enforcement Camera contravening parking restrictions on Heathway (Dagenham).

The Council has issued and served a Penalty Charge Notice as the aforementioned vehicle was recorded by an approved device stopped on 'stopped on a restricted bus stop or stand'. The CCTV footage was reviewed by a CCTV operator who deemed that a contravention has occurred.

The contravention occurs when a vehicle other than a public service vehicle operating a scheduled service waits during prescribed hours on a restricted bus stop or a bus stop clearway/red route marked by yellow markings and the words 'BUS STOP' or 'BUS STAND'.

I have noted your comments and I have checked all the evidence, I can confirm that the location is correct and is very clear that the vehicle was stopped on a restricted bus stop, therefore the PCN was issued correctly.

We have again reviewed the CCTV footage and have considered the representations you have submitted. Unfortunately, you have not satisfactorily demonstrated in your appeal that an exemption applies. The other points submitted in mitigation do not justify the cancellation of the PCN.

See attached the photo evidence:

(photo evidence here)

This letter is a formal Notice of Rejection. Therefore, before the end of the period of 28 days, beginning with the date of service of this Notice of Rejection, ("the 28-day period"), you must either:

- pay the full amount of £110
- appeal to the Environment and Traffic Adjudicators ("ETA"), please note that payment at the discounted amount will no longer be available if your appeal is unsuccessful

As you made your challenge within the period during which the discounted amount of £55.00 was payable, we are willing to reoffer this discount until the end of the period of 21 days beginning with the date of service of this letter. If payment is not received within this period, then the full amount of £110.00 will be due.

If you wish to appeal then you may do so online at www.londontribunals.org.uk Your verification code for the appeal is 91H313 and you will need to input this in order to appeal. If you are unable to appeal online then you can submit your appeal by post using the Appeal Form enclosed with this letter.

You should be advised that:

- The Adjudicator cannot consider mitigating circumstances
The Adjudicator's decision is binding on you and us
- Costs may be awarded against either side if the Adjudicator considers that they have acted in a frivolous, vexatious or wholly unreasonable manner.

If you wish to pay the charge, payment can be made as follows:

(details of how to pay here)

If you do not pay or make an appeal to ETA during the 28-day period then we may increase the Penalty Charge by 50% and we may serve a Charge Certificate, at which point the Penalty Charge will be £165.00. Please note however that the Adjudicator may consider a late appeal, provided that you give sufficient reasons for the delay. If we receive notification of an appeal after the Charge Certificate has been served then we will cancel the Charge Certificate and the charge will revert to the full amount of £110.00.

Yours sincerely,

***

The postal appeal form for a Moving Traffic Penalty Charge follows the above.

Is it really enough to contest a vague locus representation by just saying "I can confirm the location is correct"?

Re: Barking & Dagenham - 47J - Stopped in a bus stop - Dagenham Heathway
« Reply #10 on: »
Moving Traffic Appeal Form?  Please show it.
IF YOU RECEIVE A MOVING TRAFFIC PCN PLEASE READ THIS BEFORE MAKING A REPRESENTATION:

https://www.ftla.uk/the-flame-pit/moving-traffic-pcns-missing-mandatory-information-the-london-local-authorities-a/msg102639/#msg102639


How do we get more people to fight their PCNs?

https://www.ftla.uk/the-flame-pit/how-do-we-get-more-people-to-fight-their-pcns/msg41917/#msg41917

If you do not even make a challenge, you will surely join "The Mugged Club".

I am not omniscient. cp8759 and mrmustard are true geniuses. I know my place in the hierarchy of The Three Musketeers. 😊 "The Clinician", "The Gentleman" and "The Showman"

My e mail address for councils:

J.BOND007@H.M.S.S.c/oVAUXHALLBRIDGE/LICENSEDTOEXPOSE.SCAMS.CO.UK

Last mission accomplished:

https://www.ftla.uk/the-flame-pit/southwark-to-r

Re: Barking & Dagenham - 47J - Stopped in a bus stop - Dagenham Heathway
« Reply #11 on: »
@Kirbs as the discount is not on offer there's no reason not to carry on.

Would you like me to represent you at the tribunal?
I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor or a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193 and I abide by the SPMF service standards.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order

Re: Barking & Dagenham - 47J - Stopped in a bus stop - Dagenham Heathway
« Reply #12 on: »
+1
With no discount offered, it is a total no-brainer to take them to London Tribunals. I'd go with cp8759's offer.

Re: Barking & Dagenham - 47J - Stopped in a bus stop - Dagenham Heathway
« Reply #13 on: »
Moving Traffic Appeal Form?  Please show it.

It's in the folder above that linked to the PCN pages, but also direct link here: https://1drv.ms/i/s!AtrfspPXTIQKgbJYpuQ4QB5--KNYEg

@Kirbs as the discount is not on offer there's no reason not to carry on.

Would you like me to represent you at the tribunal?

Is it not on offer still? The letter said (below the bullet points):

"As you made your challenge within the period during which the discounted amount of £55.00 was payable, we are willing to reoffer this discount until the end of the period of 21 days beginning with the date of service of this letter. If payment is not received within this period, then the full amount of £110.00 will be due."

That being said, if there is reasonable chance of winning I would be happy to take a chance on tribunal even with the discount still available, and at that point would be grateful for the representation. What do you think of the chances?

Re: Barking & Dagenham - 47J - Stopped in a bus stop - Dagenham Heathway
« Reply #14 on: »
We've seen quite a few appeals allowed laterly based on wrong or vague location, so you have a reasonable chance if you want to take this further.
I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor or a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193 and I abide by the SPMF service standards.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order