Author Topic: Barking 52M Failing to comply with prohibition  (Read 3500 times)

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Re: Barking 52M Failing to comply with prohibition
« Reply #15 on: »
@cp8759
Awesome. Couldn't agree more with absolutely spot on revisions.
I'll type the letter now and prepare all documents for posting with recorded delivery 2mrw, filming every step as you advised.
Will let you know how it goes.
Thanks again for the immense help.

Re: Barking 52M Failing to comply with prohibition
« Reply #16 on: »
@cp8759
Awesome. Couldn't agree more with absolutely spot on revisions.
I'll type the letter now and prepare all documents for posting with recorded delivery 2mrw, filming every step as you advised.
Will let you know how it goes.
Thanks again for the immense help.
You don't need to send it recorded delivery, 1st class post is fine.
I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor or a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193 and I abide by the SPMF service standards.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order

Re: Barking 52M Failing to comply with prohibition
« Reply #17 on: »

UPDATE ON THIS MATTER

I received reply from Barking & Dagenham. There were four separate letters, the first was Notice of rejection of representation for PCN number BZ99502628. But the following three were letters of cancellation on goodwill gesture only.

They appear to have acceded to the request to pay one of the penalty charges at the discounted rate

I have attached letters.

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Re: Barking 52M Failing to comply with prohibition
« Reply #18 on: »

the other part of notice of rejection

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Re: Barking 52M Failing to comply with prohibition
« Reply #19 on: »

The other three letters of cancellation on goodwill gesture

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Re: Barking 52M Failing to comply with prohibition
« Reply #20 on: »
Well that's three out of four, so not a bad start.

At this point if they'd reoffered the 50% discount for PCN BZ99502628 then I would have suggested that, unless someone could identify a fairly solid ground of appeal, you might want to consider paying it.

However as they've not reoffered the discount, there's really no point in paying now: you might as well appeal as the penalty stays the same if you lose, and goes down to £0 if you win.

Fortunately the one they haven't cancelled is the one where the sign would have been obscured by the bus.

Would you like me to represent you at the tribunal?
I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor or a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193 and I abide by the SPMF service standards.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order

Re: Barking 52M Failing to comply with prohibition
« Reply #21 on: »
Hi,
agreed, not a bad position at all; 3 out of 4.
Correct me if I'm wrong but I got the impression that they re-offered the 50% discount until the end of the period of 14 days beginning from the date of service of the letter [cf 3rd paragraph on page 2 of PCN: BZ99502628]. That being what we had  invited the council to consider in the representation.

But if I have misunderstood the text I'll  be happy for you to take the case forward.
Thanks

Re: Barking 52M Failing to comply with prohibition
« Reply #22 on: »
Yes you're right, for some reason they've structured the letter in an unusual way, normally the discounted amount is mentioned first.

Anyway, I think there is a viable appeal against that PCN based on the position of the bus in the video, I don't think you could have seen the sign. You now need to decide whether you want to pursue an appeal on that point, or whether you want to take the discount offer.
I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor or a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193 and I abide by the SPMF service standards.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order

Re: Barking 52M Failing to comply with prohibition
« Reply #23 on: »

I have until end of today to pay discounted charge.

An appeal at this stage is going to the tribunal, right?
I will need your guidance for that.

As an aside, and for my edification, would an adjudicator not view appealing after the council has been at first hand conciliatory as abuse of process of resolution? Just curious.

Re: Barking 52M Failing to comply with prohibition
« Reply #24 on: »
If you want to appeal to the tribunal I'm happy to represent you.

The adjudicator cannot consider mitigating or aggravating factors, either the contravention occurred or it didn't.
I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor or a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193 and I abide by the SPMF service standards.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order

Re: Barking 52M Failing to comply with prohibition
« Reply #25 on: »
Thanks. I am happy for you to represent me.

What do I have to do now?

Re: Barking 52M Failing to comply with prohibition
« Reply #26 on: »
I've dropped you a PM.
I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor or a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193 and I abide by the SPMF service standards.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order

Re: Barking 52M Failing to comply with prohibition
« Reply #27 on: »
I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor or a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193 and I abide by the SPMF service standards.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order

Re: Barking 52M Failing to comply with prohibition
« Reply #28 on: »
Hey guys, i got this same PCN and decided to fight it. They denied my initial appeal and and i'm now formally challenging it. However in doing my research i have found someone has already appeal and won through this location for station parade barking:

https://londontribunals.org.uk/ords/pwslive/f?p=14952:70::INITIALISE::70:P70_CAS_REFNO,P70_PCN_REFNO,P70_RETURN_PAGE,P70_AST_CODE:1560981,2934024,60,APPEAL&cs=3H7-QAGGBgo46pi6iU1kXG-y4f42hNViXVMZPwLIUNyDq6zVCnBeJreOMW8b-JSDVeoVQaXNsgP5T50WZpiuYig

the case reference is 2230142184

"Mr Oliviera attended today.
The CCTV footage shows the appellant’s car drive past signs on each side of the carriageway in Station Parade that indicate that motor vehicles are prohibited. The appellant accepts that he drove past the signs however he argues that there is insufficient warning of the restriction and that by the time a driver sees the signs it is not possible to easily make a U turn. The appellant provides images from google street view in support of his argument. During the hearing I looked at google street view images from March 2022.
The local authority argues that there is sufficient warning of the restriction and that the signs are clear.
The appellant drove from Linton Road and turned right into Cambridge Road. At the junction of Cambridge Road and Station Parade it is not permitted to turn right as there is a pedestrian zone. The no motor vehicles signs are a short distance after a driver turns left. I find that the signs are not visible before a driver turns left.
The local authority provides a photograph of a warning sign in Linton Road. The sign indicates that there is no left turn at the first turning on the left and that all other routes are the second turn on the left. Straight ahead is access to Linton Road only. The road on the right is prohibited to vehicles over 7.5 tonnes except for buses and Vicarage Fields. The sign indicates that the station is to the right. Mr Oliviera was driving to the station.
I find that the warning sign in Linton Road relates only to vehicles over 7.5 tonnes and not to all motor vehicles. I find that the sign does not clearly indicate that all motor vehicles need to take the second turn on the left.
There is an additional yellow warning sign that states no access to Station Parade from Cambridge Road. Mr Oliviera argues that a driver might not know the names of the roads.
Although there is no obligation for any warning sign in this case if a motorist reaches the junction of Cambridge Road and Station Parade they see a sign indicating that there is a pedestrian zone on the right. The no motor vehicles signs are a short distance from the left turn. The road is outside a station and opposite a car park ramp and it does not appear to be a place where it would appropriate to carry out a U turn. I find that the sign in Linton Road does not give adequate warning of the restriction and that in the absence of clear warning I find that the overall signage for the restriction in Station Parade is unclear.
I allow this appeal."

Ill inform on my appeal to but heres what i said is:
"I appeal on the ground that the alleged contravention did not occur because the signage at Station Parade, Barking, fails to adequately convey the restriction to motorists approaching the location and creates an entrapment situation where compliance is impossible once committed.

Under Regulation 18(1) of the Local Authorities’ Traffic Orders (Procedure) (England and Wales) Regulations 1996 and Regulation 10(1) of the Traffic Signs Regulations and General Directions 2016 (TSRGD), the authority must ensure that restrictions are clearly indicated and visible in time for drivers to comply safely. The Traffic Signs Manual (Chapter 3, paras 1.21 & 3.1.2) states that regulatory signs must provide adequate advance warning where immediate compliance would be unsafe or impracticable.

At Station Parade, the “No Motor Vehicles – Except buses, taxis and cycles” sign is positioned only after a driver has already turned, leaving no safe or lawful way to turn around. There is no adequate advance warning, and once the sign becomes visible, the motorist is effectively trapped. This layout has created an ongoing entrapment location that has caught many otherwise law-abiding drivers who cannot reasonably comply.

Furthermore, the enforcement authority failed to properly consider my earlier representation as required by Schedule 1, Paragraph 5(2) of the London Local Authorities and Transport for London Act 2003. My challenge specifically raised the inadequate signage, absence of advance warning, and unsafe layout. The council’s rejection addressed only my reference to Google Maps, ignoring the substantive signage issues. This constitutes a failure to consider and therefore a procedural impropriety.

This same restriction and layout have already been ruled inadequate by the Adjudicator in Case 2230142184 (Vitor Da Silva Oliveira v London Borough of Barking and Dagenham, 27 March 2023). In that case, the Adjudicator found that the signs are not visible before a driver turns, that the advance sign on Linton Road does not give adequate warning, and that the overall signage for Station Parade is unclear. The Adjudicator also observed that a driver cannot make a safe U-turn once committed. As the conditions remain unchanged, the same reasoning applies here.

For these reasons, the signage fails to provide adequate advance warning, the layout creates an unavoidable entrapment situation, and the council failed to properly consider my representations."