3. Baliff stage: Hounslow PCN - lease/courtesy car - please advise
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Baliff stage: Hounslow PCN - lease/courtesy car - please advise
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I have received a notice of enforcement from Newlyn for a unpaid PCN from Hounslow council on 15/04/2023. I have received no correspondence to date relating to the PCN.

I am intending to pay Newlyn but am seeking advice on how I can argue the cost. I am also unclear as to whether there is a CCJ in place or not which I need to argue.

  • At the time of the PCN we had a lease car through Lex Autolease and therefore Lex is the owner of the vehicle with the DVLA
  • However at the time of the PCN I was driving a courtesy car as the leased car was in for repair
  • I spoke to the courtesy car provider who said if they receive a PCN they fill in an online form giving the VRN of the car that is being repaired and the council/DLVA redirect the PCN to the owner. The courtesy car provider confirmed they only ever received the original PCN
  • I would therefore assume the PCN would be rerouted to Lex who would usually pay the PCN and invoice me with an admin fee - Lex has confirmed no record of the PCN
  • I also notice on the Notice of Enforcement that our post code is incorrect which may explain why previous correspondence never reached me - is this a point I can argue?
  • I am unable to review the original PCN on the Hounslow website now that it has gone to Newlyn and there is of course no option to call - I am making an assumption that the PCN was in fact correct and am not disputing the original charge

The only correspondence I have is the Notice of Enforcement, no PCN or any other correspondence either by post or email.

Please advise where I should go from here?


 
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Re: Baliff stage: Hounslow PCN - lease/courtesy car - please advise
« Reply #1 on: »
You're getting rather mixed up and we need you to take this step-by-step.

Firstly, pay Newlyn. This doesn't affect your legal rights.

Next, was the courtesy car actually hired, if so by whom, you or Lex?

If you, then look at your rental agreement and check the address.

If Lex, then there's been a serious error on their and the council's parts. You cannot be the 'owner' for enforcement purposes because this can only be the registered keeper or 'hirer'.

Hirer is not a synonym for driver. If Lex hired the vehicle then the issue is between them and whoever hired the vehicle to them.

Let's clear our lines on the above pl before going further. Paying buys you all the time you need.
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Re: Baliff stage: Hounslow PCN - lease/courtesy car - please advise
« Reply #2 on: »
Thank you - yes I am very mixed up!

The courtesy car came as part of my car insurance which is arranged directly by me and not Lex. The T&C of the courtesy car state

- Any penalty charges / parking charges will be at the drivers responsibility, if any penalty is received the liability will be transferred to the driver for payment.

I think the issue is with the "transfer to the driver" - it was not transferred to me as I am not attached to the VRN.
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Re: Baliff stage: Hounslow PCN - lease/courtesy car - please advise
« Reply #3 on: »
Now even more mixed up!

You started by involving Lex in your narrative but now we have your insurer!

If your part in this was as the driver then IMO you have no liability as regards road traffic procedures.

More importantly, we haven't seen the Notice of Enforcement from Newlyn and don't know the latest date for payment stated therein.

What is it and don't miss it otherwise the debt increases by a whopping £235.
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Re: Baliff stage: Hounslow PCN - lease/courtesy car - please advise
« Reply #4 on: »
The key is who is/was the registered keeper of the courtesy car. That's where the PCN went. And what happened next.
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Re: Baliff stage: Hounslow PCN - lease/courtesy car - please advise
« Reply #5 on: »
Thanks to your advice I have simplified things (I think).

The courtesy car provider have confirmed that the hire agreement was solely between me and them and have provided a copy of said agreement.

They confirmed that when the PCN was received they wrote to Hounslow Council for a transfer of liability with a copy of the hire agreement with my name and address and Hounslow wrote back confirming their correspondence.

Then we have a year's gap where Hounslow did not contact me.

The notice of enforcement date payment date is 6 December so I am ok there.

 
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Re: Baliff stage: Hounslow PCN - lease/courtesy car - please advise
« Reply #6 on: »
Is the Notice of Enforcement addressed you at your correct and current address?

Is the address on the the NoE the address you were living at when the car was hired, or supplied to you?

How much do Newlyn want?

Please post up the NoE. Just redact your name & address, leave everything else visible.
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Re: Baliff stage: Hounslow PCN - lease/courtesy car - please advise
« Reply #7 on: »
Notice is correct name and start of address but postcode is wrong

They want £280 which I have paid today

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Re: Baliff stage: Hounslow PCN - lease/courtesy car - please advise
« Reply #8 on: »
Yes the address is where we were living (except wrong postcode)
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Re: Baliff stage: Hounslow PCN - lease/courtesy car - please advise
« Reply #9 on: »
Postcode can be critical.
There is a big gap until they registered the debt.
You should have got the PCN in June last year

PCN events

Date             Description
20/11/2024 12:33 Exported to Enforcement Agent(Newlyn PLC)
27/09/2024 17:03 Image scanned to case
18/09/2024 01:30 Notice of Debt Registration Issued
06/12/2023 17:31 Image scanned to case
10/11/2023 17:33 Image scanned to case
13/07/2023 02:30 Charge Certificate Issued
06/06/2023 03:00 PCN Issued
05/06/2023 11:24 Change Of Keeper
19/05/2023 12:30 File Added via Workflow
19/05/2023 12:30 File Added via Workflow
19/05/2023 12:30 File Added via Workflow
19/05/2023 12:30 On Hold: Workflow
10/05/2023 03:00 PCN Issued
09/05/2023 07:05 Change Of Keeper
09/05/2023 07:05 Off Hold Compensate
26/04/2023 17:30 Image scanned to case
26/04/2023 17:30 On Hold :Workflow
21/04/2023 03:00 PCN Issued
« Last Edit: December 03, 2024, 06:16:09 pm by stamfordman »
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Re: Baliff stage: Hounslow PCN - lease/courtesy car - please advise
« Reply #10 on: »
Stamford man where are those dates from? Super interesting!

So does the postcode mistake give me a leg to stand on to fight this?
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Re: Baliff stage: Hounslow PCN - lease/courtesy car - please advise
« Reply #11 on: »
@stamfordman looked up the case progression on the Council's website. Not all Council's have this but Hounslow does.

From this it is apparent that the PCN was previously served on two other parties before you. But it's not clear who they are.

The PCN seems to have been posted and issued to you on Tuesday 6th June 2023, so it was deemed served on  Thursday 8th June 2023. However the postcode was incorrect. So I would argue it was never correctly served.

How out of kilter is the postcode?

The Council followed up with a Charge Certificate issued on 13th July 2023 since there was no payment or a representation.

The Council then followed up with an Order for Recovery on the 18th Sept 2024 since there was no response to the Charge Cert.

However there are two entries in between the Charge Certificate and the Order for Recovery which are unexplained. I would expect that they indicate some correspondence was received from somebody? Was it you?

"06/12/2023 17:31 Image scanned to case
 10/11/2023 17:33 Image scanned to case"

The long delay, 14 months, between the Charge Cert and the OfR is also unexplained albeit it may be legal.

I would hope that an Out of Time application and Statutory Declaration would be accepted since at no point were the statutory notices sent to the correct address, the postcode was incorrect. But don't attempt to submit the PE3 & PE2 OOT until we have reviewed what you want to put on it, to minimise the chance of rejection.

If your OOT & SD are accepted then the case would be reverted to the PCN stage from where it can be paid or challenged. Your existing payment would be refunded.
« Last Edit: December 03, 2024, 10:52:09 pm by Enceladus »
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Re: Baliff stage: Hounslow PCN - lease/courtesy car - please advise
« Reply #12 on: »
I expect the first keeper is a lease firm and the second the insurer.

So check with the insurer what address details they have for you.

The images may be mail returns. 
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Re: Baliff stage: Hounslow PCN - lease/courtesy car - please advise
« Reply #13 on: »
Thank you. The postcode has an incorrect second number so e.g n7 rather than n3.

Am I likely to have CCJ’s against my name for this? I’m extremely worried about my credit rating
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Re: Baliff stage: Hounslow PCN - lease/courtesy car - please advise
« Reply #14 on: »
You have paid so that's an end to matters.....

...until you start to challenge this farce which with our help you can.

But there's no pressure on you and therefore you can take your time discovering who's who in this saga.

What do you have to hand that you could post e.g. the so-called hire agreement etc? And OP, we work on hard evidence not summary, editorial and assumption. So 'The courtesy car provider have confirmed that the hire agreement was solely between me and them and have provided a copy of said agreement.' isn't evidence, but the 'hire agreement' is. So pl post.

Did you actually pay the car provider? If not, then I doubt this would be considered a 'hire agreement'.

Before I post what a 'hire agreement' is and must contain we need to know the contravention e.g. parking, moving traffic, congestion charge. The PCN progression doesn't refer to Notice to Owner therefore one could assume it's not parking...but let's not assume anything, let's establish!

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  3. Baliff stage: Hounslow PCN - lease/courtesy car - please advise