3. Bailiffs Swansea Council - 02 - Page Street
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Re: Bailiffs Swansea Council - 02 - Page Street
« Reply #30 on: »
Quote from: H C Andersen on June 18, 2024, 09:37:18 pm


Out of time and Order for Recovery.

And the answer to my question is?

Hello,

I wasn't on any holidays if that's what you mean. I live permanently at this address, so would've been home or in work. However, I have never seen this 'OfR' or 'Charge Certificate' document in my life.
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Re: Bailiffs Swansea Council - 02 - Page Street
« Reply #31 on: »
Quote from: RhysGrif on June 18, 2024, 09:41:56 pm
Quote from: H C Andersen on June 18, 2024, 09:37:18 pm


Out of time and Order for Recovery.

And the answer to my question is?

Hello,

I wasn't on any holidays if that's what you mean. I live permanently at this address, so would've been home or in work. However, I have never seen this 'OfR' or 'Charge Certificate' document in my life.
We've both been doing this for too many years than we care to recall. You wouldn't believ how many times that we've queried address details to later be told "oh the road name is wrong but I didn't think it mattered", often when it seriously affects the likely outcome of a case.
I asked you to compare the address on the notices to your V5C; did you really do that.

These things can boil down to just one digit or letter being wrong anywhere, even the general format of layout of the address. So tell me again that you've really looked in detail ---- because, while you have a strong technical chance of success, this is still crucial to any court application you may make.
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Re: Bailiffs Swansea Council - 02 - Page Street
« Reply #32 on: »
Quote from: Neil B on June 18, 2024, 10:21:49 pm
Quote from: RhysGrif on June 18, 2024, 09:41:56 pm
Quote from: H C Andersen on June 18, 2024, 09:37:18 pm


Out of time and Order for Recovery.

And the answer to my question is?

Hello,

I wasn't on any holidays if that's what you mean. I live permanently at this address, so would've been home or in work. However, I have never seen this 'OfR' or 'Charge Certificate' document in my life.
We've both been doing this for too many years than we care to recall. You wouldn't believ how many times that we've queried address details to later be told "oh the road name is wrong but I didn't think it mattered", often when it seriously affects the likely outcome of a case.
I asked you to compare the address on the notices to your V5C; did you really do that.

These things can boil down to just one digit or letter being wrong anywhere, even the general format of layout of the address. So tell me again that you've really looked in detail ---- because, while you have a strong technical chance of success, this is still crucial to any court application you may make.

Hello,

I have compared the V5C & the document that Swansea council attached in the file & both addresses match.

However, slightest possibility there is a street 10 mins away from my address which ends in ‘Street’ and my address ends in ‘Road’. Both address have same name and same 4 starting post codes ‘**11’

My house has received postage from similar street name before so it’s not an impossible scenario.
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Re: Bailiffs Swansea Council - 02 - Page Street
« Reply #33 on: »
26/10/2023 = Thurs = Date of NTO & presumed date of posting
30/10/2023 = Mon = 2nd working day after posting & deemed date of service = day 1 of 28 day period
26/11/2023 = Sun = Day 28 of 28 day period = date of payment made

So the payment was made in-time.
This is further supported by the OP's statement that the Council's payment system only asked for £70 when he made the payment. The Charge Certificate had not yet been issued so the payment demanded hadn't yet incremented.

The case progression history tells us that the Charge Cert was issued on Monday the 27th Nov 2023 at 10:52. However the £70 payment was only credited to the account at 21:30 on Monday the 27th Nov 2023.

So I would say you can legitimately submit a Witness Statement and Out of Time application as you have a receipt that shows payment was actually made at 17:33:45 on Sun 26th Nov 2023, using the ground "The penalty charge has been paid in full".

However please don't submit anything until we have the facts clear. You only have one shot at getting this right.

The case progression does not mention any representations or a Notice of Rejection. The OP has told us "I paid my PCN in November 2023 after appealing the charge. Didn’t win my appeal so later paid the full £70 for my PCN."  This remains unexplained.

The OP denies receipt of the Charge Cert of the 27th Nov 2023 and the Order for Recovery posted on the 20th Dec 2023.
« Last Edit: June 19, 2024, 01:34:36 am by Enceladus »
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Re: Bailiffs Swansea Council - 02 - Page Street
« Reply #34 on: »
Quote from: Enceladus on June 19, 2024, 12:49:27 am
26/10/2023 = Thurs = Date of NTO & presumed date of posting
30/10/2023 = Mon = 2nd working day after posting & deemed date of service = day 1 of 28 day period
26/11/2023 = Sun = Day 28 of 28 day period = date of payment made

So the payment was made in-time.
This is further supported by the OP's statement that the Council's payment system only asked for £70 when he made the payment. The Charge Certificate had not yet been issued so the payment demanded hadn't yet incremented.

The case progression history tells us that the Charge Cert was issued on Monday the 27th Nov 2023 at 10:52. However the £70 payment was only credited to the account at 21:30 on Monday the 27th Nov 2023.

So I would say you can legitimately submit a Witness Statement and Out of Time application as you have a receipt that shows payment was actually made at 17:33:45 on Sun 26th Nov 2023, using the ground "The penalty charge has been paid in full".

However please don't submit anything until we have the facts clear. You only have one shot at getting this right.

The case progression does not mention any representations or a Notice of Rejection. The OP has told us "I paid my PCN in November 2023 after appealing the charge. Didn’t win my appeal so later paid the full £70 for my PCN."  This remains unexplained.

The OP denies receipt of the Charge Cert of the 27th Nov 2023 and the Order for Recovery posted on the 20th Dec 2023.

Hello,

I always have the payment via my bank logged at the same time as the receipt.

I’m sure that I appealed the parking ticket however the NtO, I had seen and that document looks familiar which is why my payment is 28 days based on that document date.

But I have not seen the charge certificate & the NfR.
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Re: Bailiffs Swansea Council - 02 - Page Street
« Reply #35 on: »
OP, let me attempt to simplify this for you.


Despite your contradictory statements e.g. references to 'your parents' address, which is where you live permanently, and Enceladus' attempt to get a straight answer to whether you received a NTO which you responded to by showing docs issued by the council (issuing and service being different) etc. now that we've seen the NTO and the council's PCN timeline IMO this case is essentially very simple.

The council's PCN timeline evidence shows:
An entry to the effect that a NTO was dated and posted 25 Oct.
An entry to the effect that another NTO was produced, dated and posted on 26 Oct. (which in law was deemed served Mon. 30th and which in law prevented the authority from applying the surcharge until 27 Nov.)(and which was unlawful if indeed they'd issued another on 25th)
An entry to the effect that a CC was produced dated and posted on 27 Nov.
An entry showing payment of £70 received 27Nov.
An entry showing a CC posted 27th Nov.
A separate response to you stating payment made 26 Nov.

Even shorter version:
CC issued 27 Nov. Served 29th on which date and on which date ONLY you were liable for the increased penalty. You are NOT liable simply because a 28-day target was exceeded, this only permits them to serve a CC.

Write to the morons and set out your conditions for not going public with their stupidity and unlawful actions:
1. Cancel PCN;
2. Apology;
3. An undertaking to review their procedures.

Wait for others.
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Re: Bailiffs Swansea Council - 02 - Page Street
« Reply #36 on: »
I would just add to HCA's response above.

The copy of the NTO visible in the spaghetti of the posted documents is dated the 26th Oct 2023. There isn't one dated the 25th Oct albeit the case progression suggests that one was printed and posted on the 25th Oct.
&
The receipt for the payment of £70 on the 26th Nov 2023 appears to be an email receipt from Swansea. So their own payment system confirms that the payment was made on the 26th Nov.

@RhysGrif It would be helpful if  can dig out the Notice to Owner that you seem to have received and confirm the date of issue? IE the document from which you deduced that the payment deadline was the 26th Nov 2023. Better yet post up the NTO so we can check it properly.

@RhysGrif what leads you to believe you "appealed" and were rejected? There is no mention in the case progression history of any informal or formal representations (challenges) against the PCN or the NTO. So there is no rejection letter.
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Re: Bailiffs Swansea Council - 02 - Page Street
« Reply #37 on: »
All that's true and hammers more nails into their coffin.

However, whether one or more NTOs were issued at any time isn't the killer, it's that the lawful penalty may only be a max. of £70 unless a CC is served. NOT issued, but served.

And the CC in evidence was posted on 27 Nov. therefore served 29th.

The council MUST BY LAW accept the penalty of £70 before this date.
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Re: Bailiffs Swansea Council - 02 - Page Street
« Reply #38 on: »
I also note that the Charge Certificate mentions an NTO served on the 26th Oct, which isn't correct even if the NTO was printed and posted on the 25th Oct.

However right now the issue is the wording to be used on the OP's Out of Time application. A valid reason for being late with the Witness Statement. If that is successful then the £464 paid to the bailiff should be refunded. If not successful, then an N244 review will be required at further expense.

I doubt if the case will reach the Adjudicator as an appeal since the OP paid the PCN and that should have closed the case.

Witness Statement TE9
Out of Time application TE7


Here is a draft of what could go into the TE7 OOT. Please wait for others to comment. The objective is to keep it simple.

This Penalty Charge Notice was paid in full and within the time limit. I received an email payment receipt dated the 26th Nov 2023, copy included below.

I did not receive any further correspondence or notices from the Council indicating that the Penalty Charge remained unsatisfied. In particular I did not receive an Order for Recovery of Unpaid Penalty Charge and was consequently unaware of the need to submit a Witness Statement, within the time limit, to the effect that the Penalty Charge Notice had been paid.

The Penalty Charge Notice was paid in full within the 28 days (beginning with the date of service) permitted by the Notice to Owner dated and posted the 26th Oct 2023 and thus deemed served on the 30th Oct 2023.
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Re: Bailiffs Swansea Council - 02 - Page Street
« Reply #39 on: »
Quote from: Enceladus on June 19, 2024, 02:07:59 pm
I would just add to HCA's response above.

The copy of the NTO visible in the spaghetti of the posted documents is dated the 26th Oct 2023. There isn't one dated the 25th Oct albeit the case progression suggests that one was printed and posted on the 25th Oct.
&
The receipt for the payment of £70 on the 26th Nov 2023 appears to be an email receipt from Swansea. So their own payment system confirms that the payment was made on the 26th Nov.

@RhysGrif It would be helpful if  can dig out the Notice to Owner that you seem to have received and confirm the date of issue? IE the document from which you deduced that the payment deadline was the 26th Nov 2023. Better yet post up the NTO so we can check it properly.

@RhysGrif what leads you to believe you "appealed" and were rejected? There is no mention in the case progression history of any informal or formal representations (challenges) against the PCN or the NTO. So there is no rejection letter.

Hello,

I will attempt to find the NTO however, I will say that it won't be likely as that document is 7+ months old, I only found my original PCN by chance that it was still in my draw.

Based on their document though, their charge certificate documents that the NTO was dated the 26/10 therefore wouldn't that double up on the conclusion that the document was dated 26/10 but the second working day falls on a weekend resulting in 28 day period ending on the 30th.
« Last Edit: June 19, 2024, 06:07:17 pm by RhysGrif »
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Re: Bailiffs Swansea Council - 02 - Page Street
« Reply #40 on: »
Quote from: RhysGrif on June 19, 2024, 05:57:05 pm
Hello,

I will attempt to find the NTO however, I will say that it won't be likely as that document is 7+ months old, I only found my original PCN by chance that it was still in my draw.

Based on their document though, their charge certificate documents that the NTO was dated the 26/10 therefore wouldn't that double up on the conclusion that the document was dated 26/10 but the second working day falls on a weekend resulting in 28 day period starting on the 30th.
Actually the Charge Cert doesn't say that the NTO was dated the 26/10. It says the NTO was served on the 26/10/2023.

Date served has a different meaning to the date of issue or date of posting. Served is the date the document arrived with you. In this case it's deemed to be the 2nd working day after the notice was posted. And in this case the notice is supposed to be posted the same day as it was issued. So issued and posted on the 26/10/2023. Hence served on the 30/10/2023 which is the second working day after posting. So the date served on the Charge Cert is incorrect and misleading. Not to mention adding unnecessary confusion.

It would be helpful to be able to prove that the NTO you received is dated the 26/10/2023. So please try and find the NTO.
« Last Edit: June 19, 2024, 06:33:39 pm by Enceladus »
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Re: Bailiffs Swansea Council - 02 - Page Street
« Reply #41 on: »
Quote from: Enceladus on June 19, 2024, 06:19:47 pm
Quote from: RhysGrif on June 19, 2024, 05:57:05 pm
Hello,

I will attempt to find the NTO however, I will say that it won't be likely as that document is 7+ months old, I only found my original PCN by chance that it was still in my draw.

Based on their document though, their charge certificate documents that the NTO was dated the 26/10 therefore wouldn't that double up on the conclusion that the document was dated 26/10 but the second working day falls on a weekend resulting in 28 day period starting on the 30th.
Actually the Charge Cert doesn't say that the NTO was dated the 26/10. It says the NTO was served on the 26/10/2023.

Date served has a different meaning to the date of issue or date of posting. Served is the date the document arrived with you. In this case it's deemed to be the 2nd working day after the notice was posted. And in this case the notice is supposed to be posted the same day as it was issued. So issued and posted on the 26/10/2023. Hence served on the 30/10/2023 which is the second working day after posting. So the date served on the Charge Cert is incorrect and misleading. Not to mention adding unnecessary confusion.

It would be helpful to be able to prove that the NTO you received is dated the 26/10/2023. So please try and find the NTO.

Hello,

After tipping my room upside down i've found the original nto i've linked it below.

https://ibb.co/wpH5Npd
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Re: Bailiffs Swansea Council - 02 - Page Street
« Reply #42 on: »
In case it disappears from ibb
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Re: Bailiffs Swansea Council - 02 - Page Street
« Reply #43 on: »
For fear of sounding like a record stuck in a groove, it matters not.

If the full penalty of £70 was paid before a CC was served (which the council's evidence shows is the case) then that's it, there is no further penalty to pay.

It's the law.
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Re: Bailiffs Swansea Council - 02 - Page Street
« Reply #44 on: »
Quote from: H C Andersen on June 19, 2024, 09:22:23 pm
For fear of sounding like a record stuck in a groove, it matters not.

If the full penalty of £70 was paid before a CC was served (which the council's evidence shows is the case) then that's it, there is no further penalty to pay.

It's the law.

Hello,

Yes the penalty was paid on the 26th. I have the receipt and the payment on my card transaction.

Could you please advise what my next steps are? 
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