Author Topic: Bailiffs in touch - Reading Council, didn't update V5C - threads merged  (Read 358 times)

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Alan

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Hi all,

I received a letter today forwarded from buyers of my previous property. The letter was from CDER about a £425 charge for a PCN on behalf of Reading Council, CDER's letter attached here.

I called CDER as its the first I heard about this contravention (never received the original PCN). We lived at the old property 3 years ago and only learnt today that the V5C was not updated with my new address. The CDER customer service colleague gave us a reference number which when entered on Reading Council's website, I could see that this was genuine PCN and happened on the 7th Jan 2024 (10 months prior to today). The Reading Council PCN page states a fee of £115 which has increased to £425 with CDER getting involved. However when trying to pay the £115 on the council webstie, the page states I have to contact the enforcement agents as its too late.

I want to understand if I have a case for not getting the initial PCN to my new address as I would have immediately paid the £115 fee. The driving license address was corrected with DVLA pretty much after we moved but not the V5C. Should I reach out to Reading Council if I have a case at all?

My concern is CDER go to the courts, which they said they would do by next week, and my name will be associated to having a case against me.

Or alternatively should I negotiate with CDER for a lower fee?

or should I complete a TE9 (even though I have no CCJ) that I have not received the PCN?

or finally, do I pay the fee and then fight my cause with the Council?


Advise greatly appreciated.
« Last Edit: November 09, 2024, 06:51:50 pm by John U.K. »

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stamfordman

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It's been to 'court' (Traffic Enforcement Centre) and the only fees the bailiff can add are a disposal of goods fee as it seems they have charged the visit fee to go to your old address. You can't get a CCJ.

Post the letter you have blanking only name and address.

It's a legal requirement to keep the logbook up to date. it's nothing to do with a driving licence.




 
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Alan

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Thank you Stamfordman, appreciate your guidance.

Does that mean my only option is to pay the full £425?

Could I still contact the council that I had not received the original PCN (or any follow up letters)? or should it be to the Traffic Enforcement Court by completing the TE9 (non-receipt of PCN)?

If I do complete the TE9, am I inviting the £1,000 fee for not updating the V5C?

Finally, was not clear what you meant who to Post the Letter to?

And yes have updated my V5C today.

Thanks in advance.

H C Andersen

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We lived at the old property 3 years ago and only learnt today that the V5C was not updated with my new address.

You moved when?
Was your property occupied after date of issue of PCN?
Do CDER know where you live now?
Do you still have the car in question?

The largest component of your debt is CDER's fees, £310, so irrespective of the PCN we need to look at whether you could avoid some or all of these.
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Alan

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We lived at the old property 3 years ago and only learnt today that the V5C was not updated with my new address.

You moved when? Moved in early 2022
Was your property occupied after date of issue of PCN? Yes the old property was occupied by new buyers when the PCN was issued so the new buyers kindly forwarded this to me today.
Do CDER know where you live now? No
Do you still have the car in question? Yes

The largest component of your debt is CDER's fees, £310, so irrespective of the PCN we need to look at whether you could avoid some or all of these.

Thanks for your assistance, H C Andersen
« Last Edit: November 08, 2024, 07:05:08 pm by Alan »

Neil B

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We lived at the old property 3 years ago and only learnt today that the V5C was not updated with my new address.

You moved when? Moved in early 2022
Was your property occupied after date of issue of PCN? Yes the old property was occupied by new buyers when the PCN was issued so the new buyers kindly forwarded this to me today.
Do CDER know where you live now? No
Do you still have the car in question? Yes

The largest component of your debt is CDER's fees, £310, so irrespective of the PCN we need to look at whether you could avoid some or all of these.

Thanks for your assistance, H C Andersen

We're still waiting to see the CDER notice.
« Last Edit: November 08, 2024, 08:27:23 pm by Neil B »

Alan

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We lived at the old property 3 years ago and only learnt today that the V5C was not updated with my new address.

You moved when? Moved in early 2022
Was your property occupied after date of issue of PCN? Yes the old property was occupied by new buyers when the PCN was issued so the new buyers kindly forwarded this to me today.
Do CDER know where you live now? No
Do you still have the car in question? Yes

The largest component of your debt is CDER's fees, £310, so irrespective of the PCN we need to look at whether you could avoid some or all of these.

Thanks for your assistance, H C Andersen

We're still waiting to see the CDER notice.

Oh, I already attached it in my first post, here it is again. Thanks
« Last Edit: November 09, 2024, 06:52:26 pm by John U.K. »
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Neil B

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If that's it then not what we asked for.

Also please see the 'READ THIS FIRST' sticky
« Last Edit: November 08, 2024, 08:37:01 pm by Neil B »

Alan

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If that's it then not what we asked for.

Also please see the 'READ THIS FIRST' sticky

I have read the Sticky, unfortunately, this bailiff (CDER) letter and the screenshot of the contravention on the council website that I have also attached, are the only pieces of information I have access to.

Pressman

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You should contact Reading Council directly, explaining that the original PCN was sent to your old address due to an outdated V5C document. Frame this as Pre-action Conduct and Protocol under Rule 6, inviting the Reading Council to cease enforcement since the Warrant is "defective" because it lists your old address. Highlight that you would have promptly paid the £115 if properly notified, demonstrating your willingness to comply. Set a clear deadline for the Reading Council to confirm in writing that enforcement has been stopped. While they may not be obligated to reduce the charge, providing evidence of your intent to pay may encourage a favourable outcome.

Is negotiating a reduced fee with CDER feasible?

No, CDER is unlikely to agree to a lower fee, as they are instructed to recover the full amount now due. Negotiation attempts typically do not affect enforcement agents' fees once they are involved.

Should I submit a TE9 form, even though I have no CCJ, citing that I did not receive the PCN?

No, completing a TE9 form is not advisable here. Submitting the TE9 would likely result in a new warrant being issued with your updated address, which would enable CDER to continue enforcement actions against you directly. The TE9 process primarily benefits the council by allowing them to restart enforcement with correct details rather than helping you reduce the fee or contest the enforcement.

Should I pay the fee now and then dispute it with the council later?

No, paying the fee at this stage could be regarded as a voluntary payment, treated legally as a gift, and would likely limit your ability to recover it. Voluntary payments are challenging to reclaim, so avoid paying the £425 until you've fully explored all other options with the council.

As a final measure, since the Warrant states your old address, it is considered a "defective instrument." If the bailiff continues to enforce such an instrument, you may seek relief from the court to halt the enforcement.

Alan

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You should contact Reading Council directly, explaining that the original PCN was sent to your old address due to an outdated V5C document. Frame this as Pre-action Conduct and Protocol under Rule 6, inviting the Reading Council to cease enforcement since the Warrant is "defective" because it lists your old address. Highlight that you would have promptly paid the £115 if properly notified, demonstrating your willingness to comply. Set a clear deadline for the Reading Council to confirm in writing that enforcement has been stopped. While they may not be obligated to reduce the charge, providing evidence of your intent to pay may encourage a favourable outcome.

Is negotiating a reduced fee with CDER feasible?

No, CDER is unlikely to agree to a lower fee, as they are instructed to recover the full amount now due. Negotiation attempts typically do not affect enforcement agents' fees once they are involved.

Should I submit a TE9 form, even though I have no CCJ, citing that I did not receive the PCN?

No, completing a TE9 form is not advisable here. Submitting the TE9 would likely result in a new warrant being issued with your updated address, which would enable CDER to continue enforcement actions against you directly. The TE9 process primarily benefits the council by allowing them to restart enforcement with correct details rather than helping you reduce the fee or contest the enforcement.

Should I pay the fee now and then dispute it with the council later?

No, paying the fee at this stage could be regarded as a voluntary payment, treated legally as a gift, and would likely limit your ability to recover it. Voluntary payments are challenging to reclaim, so avoid paying the £425 until you've fully explored all other options with the council.

As a final measure, since the Warrant states your old address, it is considered a "defective instrument." If the bailiff continues to enforce such an instrument, you may seek relief from the court to halt the enforcement.

Thanks, Pressman for the detailed response.

How do I deal with the fact that the fines will continue to be imposed by CDER / bailiff's while I negotiate with Reading Council? Could CDER affect my credit history? Is there a way to stop the bailiff's from continuing to add these charges? Thank you

H C Andersen

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In practical terms they've added all they https://bailiffadviceonline.co.uk/bailiff-regulations/taking-control-of-goods-fees-regulations-2014


As far as I'm aware, a 'defective' warrant of control would only prevent seizing goods AT the property, it would not prevent CDER enforcing against you via your car i.e. clamp and then demand payment to release.

A defective warrant could be remedied, therefore dodging and weaving with this does nothing but buy some time.

IMO, your issue is the enforcement agent's inability to contact you. Are you a Russian spy operating under cover or do you possibly have credit agreements in your name at your new address etc?

CDER cannot just add their fees, in particular the £235 Enforcement fee, simply because they've been too idle to serve notices on you. But we don't know your situation, so it's difficult to assess.

To date and as far as we're aware all statutory notices from the council and CDER(the Notice of Enforcement) have gone unanswered by you. IMO, your best bet is to get the £235 removed from the debt, the icing on the cake would be the £75 as well, but then this would have the effect of not penalising keepers who don't keep DVLA up to date, playing doggo until the s**t hits the fan and then using their failure to keep proper DVLA records as an excuse to avoid all enforcement fees. I'll sleep on whether this is a legal or moral perspective. 

Pressman

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Alan, please understand that the CDER Group has no legal basis to affect your credit rating, as no contract exists between you and them. The alleged debt does not stem from a line of credit; rather, it is a statutory liability.

Some argue that it is always the debtor's fault for not updating their V5 with the DVLA, but this is not accurate. Only the DVLA has the authority to handle such matters under Section 59 of the Vehicle Excise and Registration Act 1994 and Part 7 of the Criminal Procedure Rules 2020. Neither the council nor enforcement agents have the authority to claim you are at fault, as this is exclusively reserved for the DVLA in its prosecutorial capacity.

If the council or bailiff asserts that enforcement is justified due to outdated DVLA records, you can apply to strike out their pleadings, as they lack any legal grounds for such a claim. Civil Procedure Rule 75.7(7) allows them to apply for a warrant specifying their current address. Enforcing at an outdated address with an invalid warrant exposes both the council and bailiff to liability.

It would be best if you issued a Rule 6 notice to the Reading Council, informing them that the warrant is defective as it lists your previous address. Set a deadline for them to cease enforcement. Alternatively, you may apply to the court for a restraining order, providing evidence of the defective warrant, your current address, and CDER Group's threats to enforce at your new address. The court may issue an order under paragraph 66 of Schedule 12 of the Tribunals, Courts and Enforcement Act 2007.

Pressman

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CDER cannot just add their fees, in particular the £235 Enforcement fee, simply because they've been too idle to serve notices on you. But we don't know your situation, so it's difficult to assess.


After reviewing your advice and the link provided, I compared it with the relevant legal authorities on enforcement agent fees. The regulations clearly state that only an enforcement agent, acting individually, is authorised to recover the prescribed fees from debtors. As a corporate entity, CDER Group Limited cannot act as an enforcement agent in this context. Section 63 of the Tribunals, Courts and Enforcement Act 2007 explicitly defines an enforcement agent as an individual with a valid certificate. Therefore, your advice suggesting that CDER Group can charge fees to a debtor is inaccurate.

I recommend updating your website to accurately reflect the Taking Control of Goods (Fees) Regulations 2014 and citing it as a reference to enhance clarity and ensure your website is complaint.


H C Andersen

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I'm not certain that the semantic distinction between a company engaged by a council to enforce warrants as their agents and the individual agents employed by that company really assists the OP.