3. Bailiffs. Fine sent to old adress.
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Re: Bailiffs. Fine sent to old adress.
« Reply #30 on: »
Quote from: Dudess73 on November 09, 2024, 01:46:39 pm
My V5c is in my maiden name - the redirect notice was in my married name.
You are right - this may be why my post was not re-directed.

Royal Mail Redirection application forms make clear that they only redirect for the names as listed on the application. So that will be why there was no Redirection. Your hadn't asked for mail in your maiden name to be redirected.

EDIT Apologies, I see the point has already been made.
« Last Edit: November 09, 2024, 08:30:28 pm by PallasAthena »
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Re: Bailiffs. Fine sent to old adress.
« Reply #31 on: »
Thank you Pressman,
To go for the rule 6 route, I would need to provide my new address is this right? Then the authority will re issue a warrant and the bailiff will bring it to my new address? So are you saying this is the way to go so in the meantime I can buy time to get my PE2/3 forms seen to?

Or am I offering the local authority to pay for the full fine and to take it back in hand and out of the bailiffs control?
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Re: Bailiffs. Fine sent to old adress.
« Reply #32 on: »
Quote from: Dudess73 on November 09, 2024, 07:31:55 pm
Thank you Pressman,
If this is successful will it mean they have to re issue the fine at the first stage? i.e at the reduced sum? I think it’s £120 and then £60 for early payment?

Yes.
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Re: Bailiffs. Fine sent to old adress.
« Reply #33 on: »
You may propose settling the statutory original Penalty Charge Notice (PCN) amount within your Rule 6 notice, incorporating this payment offer into your resolution advisory. Once the original PCN amount is remitted, this action will effectively close both the liability and any further enforcement action in full and final settlement.

A PE2 application is unnecessary, as the existing Warrant is defective, and it is advisable to allow it to remain in that state, thus protecting your position without further procedural steps.
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Re: Bailiffs. Fine sent to old adress.
« Reply #34 on: »
I am trying to understand the rule 6- is this to say that the bailiffs can’t come to my new address as it does not match the address on the original fine from the council? The council will have to start the procedure again and issue the fine from the start. The bailiffs can’t simply re write their red letter with my new address on it?
Do I need to get proof of the original council pcn with my old address before I do this?
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Re: Bailiffs. Fine sent to old adress.
« Reply #35 on: »
 have to start the procedure again and issue the fine from the start.

NO.

All they need to do is refer the matter to their client, the council, who would arrange to have the details on the warrant changed.

It has nothing to do with the procedure up to the warrant. However, as said frequently, if the warrant is changed then a fresh Notice of Enforcement would be required, therefore you would save the £235 Enforcement fee if this was included within the debt. You could also potentially avoid the £75 Compliance fee if you paid the pre-enforcement penalty which itself you would be free to challenge through TEC but in this case unlikely to succeed.
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Re: Bailiffs. Fine sent to old adress.
« Reply #36 on: »
Apologies for not understanding fully! Thank you for your patience. The warrant will be reissued to me by the bailiffs- but at the original amount at the start of their process which would be less the £235 enforcement fee. I would contact the council first, then the bailiff would be contacted by the council. The bailiff would then re issue the warrant to me.
This would apply for the three warrants with the bailiffs for the three oldest PCNs. The other four out of time PCNs not yet with the bailiffs; I could go down the route of PE2/3 Out of time witness statement. Is this right?
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Re: Bailiffs. Fine sent to old adress.
« Reply #37 on: »
There are seven PCNs. Earlier today two of them had escalated to bailiff recovery and the remaining five were sitting at £205 each, ie Orders for Recovery stage.

In your post above you have told us "three warrants with the bailiffs for the three oldest PCNs". So in less than 14 1/2 hours on a Saturday the situation has apparently changed.

Please post up a list of all seven PCNs and their current status. And the reg number of the car. So we can get to the bottom where you actually are with each PCN.

If your are within the time limit to do so on the five of seven, or is it now four of seven, PCNs you started with then you can submit statutory declarations and have the PCNS reset to the original postal PCN stage. So the Orders for Recovery would be revoked and the Charge Certificates ordered cancelled. The Council would have to re-serve the PCNs and you would have the opportunity to challenge and appeal in the normal manner. Or to pay the PCNs at the discount rate within the discount windows. IE £65 each as opposed to the £205 each they're now sitting at.

The remaining two of seven, or is it now three of seven, are more problematic as you would need to submit the SDs Out of Time and you need a very well worded explanation to get that accepted.

So please let's have the list before this situation degenerates further.
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Re: Bailiffs. Fine sent to old adress.
« Reply #38 on: »
There are seven- two are with a bailiff which I have spoken with- I didn’t realise that another one was with a bailiff until I saw it on the Barnet website today.
The other 4 -when I spoke to the TEC - I have been told are out of time, but there is still the option to pay them at the £205 amazing in the Barnet website. Sorry for the confusion my head is spinning as there’s so much to take into consideration.
I will post the Pcn numbers and the Vrn.
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Re: Bailiffs. Fine sent to old adress.
« Reply #39 on: »
AG45512514
AG45525990
AG45543981
AG45617931
AG45698456
AG45771024
AG45780433

ld62cpu

Please see above for PCNs and VRN
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Re: Bailiffs. Fine sent to old adress.
« Reply #40 on: »
Quote from: Dudess73 on November 09, 2024, 11:18:58 pm
PCN        Date Ctvn  Status            Bailiff
AG45512514 18/04/2024 Warrant Issued    Marstons
AG45525990 20/04/2024 Warrant Issued    Marstons
AG45543981 24/04/2024 Warrant Issued    CDER
AG45617931 03/05/2023 Warrant Requested ***
AG45698456 16/05/2023 Warrant Requested ***
AG45771024 23/05/2024 OfR sent          ***
AG45780433 24/05/2024 OfR sent          ***
Unfortunately the Councils PCN viewer only shows us the date of Contravention and not the dates of the progression actions.

You have three PCNs with the bailiffs. The earliest two are Marstons and the third is CDER. I'd ask Bailiff Advice Online if that is legal. Should they all be Marstons? Any Statutory Declaration will be late and out of time.

PCNs 4 & 5 are status Local Authority warrant of control requested. That is normally processed very quickly by the TEC. It tells us that they're beyond the Order for Recovery stage and are pending assignment to a bailiff for collection. Any Statutory Declaration will be late and out of time.

PCNs 6 & 7 are status Order for Recovery sent. We don't know the dates of the OfRs so they could be still within time for a statutory declaration. I wonder if you should try anyway and pronto? The TEC will bounce the SDs if they are out of time and tell you to resubmit with OOT applications, might take 2-3 weeks. Or you could phone the Council and see can you get the dates of the OfRs and report back.

So there at least five PCNs which require Out of Time applications as well as Statutory Declarations. But what to put on the OOT applications?

Curiously you seem to have made the same contravention on the 20th May 2019 and paid the PCN. So you must have known about the prohibited left turn. What happened this time?

Statutory Declarations and the Out of Time applications need to bw witnessed. This can be done FOC at any convenient County Court. Phone and check opening hours and make an appoinment of need. Each PCN needs it's own SD and the first five and possibly the last two require individual OOT applications. Complete the SD's to the effect that you did not receive the PCNs. For the purposes of these documents you are the Respondent and the Council is the Applicant.

But don't submit anything without posting up a draft of what you're going to put on the OOT applications. And you are well advised to get advice from Bailiff Advice Online for completing the OOT applications.
« Last Edit: November 10, 2024, 02:00:26 pm by Enceladus »
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Re: Bailiffs. Fine sent to old adress.
« Reply #41 on: »
Dear Enceladus,
I am preparing the following forms for all seven PCNs
PE2
PE3

Please see what I have written below
I have filled out both form with the same wording as I dont understand how they differ.

I have recently become aware that I had received multiple PCN’s when the new owners informed me that a bailiff appeared at my former address with regard to unpaid fine. I have not receive any correspondence from Barnet Council in respect of any PCN’s. I moved address on the 29th March 2024 and had a Royal Mail had a redirection notice to send my post to my new address. I am including the redirection order attached from Royal Mail.
I have not yet updated my vehicle registration address yet. The move was very stressful, and I was not able to think clearly and for this I apologise.
I contacted Barnet council immediately I heard from my neighbours to find out more details. This was the first I heard of any contravention. I have now come to find out that there are 7 fines for myself for the same contravention. 7 fines for the same offence clearly constitutes repetitive issue of the same PCN in breach of the statutory guidance for local authorities. If I had received the first PCN  I would have paid the fine immediately and not made the same left turn with the knowledge this was a contravention. I certainly would not have made the same mistake 6 more times.
The bailiffs have threatened to remove my car. I have two young children. This has caused me and my family undue stress.
I would respectfully ask you to immediately suspend all enforcement action in respect of these PCN’s and allow me to pay the original PCN in full.
I look forward to hearing form you by return.
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Re: Bailiffs. Fine sent to old adress.
« Reply #42 on: »
I too noticed that I had made the same mistake in 2019 however i can’t remember having the fine- it could have been my husband driving.
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Re: Bailiffs. Fine sent to old adress.
« Reply #43 on: »
You've drifted into the realms of mitigation. The court officer cannot factor mitigation into their decision to grant or reject your Out of Time application. They can only consider that you have valid reasons for being lat and therefore needing an extension of the limit to submit a Statutory Declaration.

So sticking with the facts and bearing in mind there needs to be one application per PCN. Modify it if you wish. Othere may advise changes, probaly to make it shorter. And I still suggest you seek help from BAO as to the wording, that's her speciality.

"I did not receive the original Penalty Charge Notice or any of the following notices, in particular I did not receive an Order for Recovery. I moved house to my current address on dd/mm/yyyy and arranged a mail redirection from Royal Mail for nn months to cover any overlap and prevent the circumstances that I now find myself in. (Please see the attached redirection notice.) Despite the mail redirection I did not receive any correspondence from the London Borough of Barnet, however I did receive mail from other parties so I had no reason to suspect the redirection wasn't working.

I only became aware that there might be a problem of outstanding PCNs as a result of bailiff visits to my old address acting on behalf of the London Borough of Barnet. I was advised of these visits by the new owners of my old address (or how did you find out?). I then telephoned the London Borough of Barnet and discovered that there were seven Penalty Charge Notices outstanding and I had not received any documentation at all in respect of these notices. I was advised to submit Statutory Declarations with applications to submit them out of time. Please grant my application to submit a statutory seclaration out of time."

On the PE3 SD form tick the box that says "I did not receive the: Notice to Owner (Parking contravention) or Enforcement Notice (Bus lane contravention) or Penalty Charge Notice (Moving Traffic contravention or Congestion Charging contravention)". Make sure you only tick one box. You don't really need anything in the reasons box, but you could put I did not receive the original PCN.

On the OOT put your reasons in the box if they fit. Otherwise put "Please see attached".

I still advise you to get your address updated.
« Last Edit: November 10, 2024, 04:38:29 pm by Enceladus »
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Re: Bailiffs. Fine sent to old adress.
« Reply #44 on: »
Quote from: Dudess73 on November 10, 2024, 03:06:06 pm
I am preparing the following forms for all seven PCNs
PE2
PE3

Please see what I have written below
I have filled out both form with the same wording as I dont understand how they differ.
You need PE2 and PE3 for each PCN. I'm not sure you understand that?

Note Enceladus' comments.

It is important that you DO understand the purpose of each form.
The PE3s are you Statutory declaration and only need minimal detail.

The PE2s are requests to file the PE3s late and where you explain in full why you should be allowed to do that.
One thing I immediately noticed, from a brief look, is that you talk about addresses but don't say what they are? Or offer any evidence of the same.

You can attach whatever is appropriate and refer to it, annotating attachments suitably.
Likewise you can type out your 'reasons' on a separate sheet if it doesn't fit the box.
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