Author Topic: Bailiff stage - Not notified of PCN for box junction entry, straight to enforcement  (Read 422 times)

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Council: Hammersmith & Fulham
Alleged: Entry into box junction west of Holland Park roundabout
Incident date: 18th June 2023
First notification: November 2024
PCN #: unknown

On the 18th of June 2023 i supposedly entered into a box junction and incurred a PCN. unaware of this incident, i sold my car around the 10th of July 2023, and subsequently moved address on the 1st December 2023. No post forwarding was put into place. The first time i was made aware of the incident was when I received a text from Marston Recovery at the start of November 2024 indicating it had moved to enforcement stage. As i was unaware of this incident, i deleted the text assuming it was a scam and emailed the Marston customer service to clarify if this was a legitimate text. No response has been received so far.

I then received the below document in the post to my new address which confirmed this was a legitimate case, at which point the liability is now £279:



https://imgur.com/a/xvpjoKW


I am happy to concede that I am liable for the PCN, but i refuse to pay the inflated fee being charged by Marston Recovery as I was not made aware of the incident originally. Marston Recovery managed to get my new address and my phone number to send this bailiff notification, so why was the council unable to?

Thanks in advance.

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Here's the video - looks like a contravention at face value.  But the issue you'll have is getting the case back on track...




« Last Edit: November 12, 2024, 10:01:54 pm by MrChips »

Thank you for the video! Bad driving on my behalf but it’s such a large box, it’s difficult to judge. I will concede that I am liable, but do I have a case to pay the original fine, or is there no avoiding the bailiff fees?

Wait for further input as this is purely procedural at this stage, you aren't in a position to challenge the original PCN.  I think advice at this stage is usually to pay to stop the fee increasing further, as I think you can still attempt to get the PCN reset and get the bailiff fees reimbursed.  But wait for others who are more expert in that area than me.

Getting it reset involves completing a form and convincing the authority/court that missing the original documents is unlucky timing.  Based on the small window between the PCN and selling the car I'd say you have a decent chance.

If/when that happens we can look at challenge options.

EDIT - although thinking about it a bit more, I'd have thought H&F would have written to you at your original address before you moved out?
« Last Edit: November 12, 2024, 10:12:26 pm by MrChips »

Before we can get started on this you are strongly advised to PAY to avoid further costs.

If anyone else here says otherwise ignore them.

Is there a chance the address on the V5 was not the one you were living at at the time of the incident?

The address on the V5 would only refer to my old address.

I will pay this fine now and hope to have some fees reimbursed. Would anyone be able to suggest how I approach having them reimbursed?

If you are to submit a credible Out-of-Time Statutory Declaration, (TEC forms PE2 and PE3), you need to explain why the PCN was  not received and that it was not your fault it went elsewhere.

Once the offence is detected, the council have 28 days to send out a PCN. They obtain the name and address of the keeper of the vehicle from DVLA using an electronic enquiry facility.
You say you sold the vehicle on or around the 10th July. With a contravention date of 18th June, they would have obtained your name and address from DVLA.

So the question is, was the address on your V5C for the car on the date of the contravention correct ? If it wasn't then you will struggle to overturn the PCN and the debt, because it is your duty as a motor vehicle owner to keep the V5C up-to-date.

It's not just the PCN (HZ70486154) that's gone astray, there's also the Charge Certificate and the Order for Recovery. All three notices would have been sent to the Registered Keeper's name & address as held by the DVLA on the 18th June 2023. The sale of the vehicle on the 10th July 2023 doesn't matter as LBHF would have asked for the Registered Keeper details that were applicable to the 18th June 2023 no matter when they actually made the request to the DVLA.

Those three documents were likely sent over a period of three to four months and all three failed to arrive. Almost certainly all three were posted prior to the 1st Dec 2023.

So it seems highly unlikely that the RK details were correct with the DVLA on the 18th June 2023. The DVLA must have held some other address or name and address. @Joe0002 can you throw any light on that? Do you have a photocopy of the V5c that you can check? I have a PDF scan of mine so that I can apply for parking permits and the like.

I put the PCN number and the car reg into the LBHF website and the PCN is found. Not that it's really relevant but I then tried to check the car tax to see when the V5c was last updated but the vehicle details are not found. Nor is the MOT history found. Perhaps the car has been scrapped, or does it exist at all?

It does beg the question though: Is DP66JKO the registration of the car you used to own, the car that's the subject of the PCN? And is the reg correct?
« Last Edit: November 13, 2024, 01:24:51 am by Enceladus »

@Incandescent looking at these replies I should have kept a copy of the V5, a lesson learnt for future.

The only other address it would be under would be my parents house where I used to live, and they have never moved home.

@Enceladus when you put it like that then it seems incredibly doubtful that I would have not received the first three documents, and in hindsight I wish I had taken a copy of the V5 for my records.

The reg is correct as it states it in the enforcement notice. I only have one picture of my old car where you can see the reg plate, I shall link it below:

 https://imgur.com/a/CklP8co

I’ve just tried to find my old car details on the MOT check website and it seems to have disappeared. Possibly been scrapped or had the plates changed?

This could be batted around almost endlessly because we don't have enough facts.

As regards the PCN:
To whom and where was this and subsequent notices sent? You have to find out, we can't. You could ask the authority - and include dates for when they were posted - but do not ask for copies because they'll baulk. As you're asking for personal info which they hold on the addressee you might be asked to prove you're that person and that they may release the info. This might be a barrier, in which case you need to submit a simple, straightforward(despite the name) Subject Access Request to the council.

https://www.lbhf.gov.uk/councillors-and-democracy/data-and-information/your-data-rights/your-data-rights-how-exercise-them

You shouldn't have to explain, but sometimes it's better so you want the addressee, addresses plus dates of posting of:
PCN
Charge Certificate
Order for Recovery
The warrant of control
(you already have the Notice of Enforcement and notice demanding the enforcement fee, yes?)

There's often an issue around the address on the warrant which, if it is made out as per the council's notices, could give the 'wrong' address. This means that the bailiff could not enforce against your premises but could still do so against any car that you own if parked on the road.

Which itself would beg the question why, once they discovered your current address, did they not notify their client to get the warrant reissued with a correct address?

So many unknowns.

OP, over to you. I agree that paying now is the best interim step because this doesn't prejudice your position as regards scrutinising the council's and bailiff's procedures or as regards getting the process reset to the PCN.
« Last Edit: November 13, 2024, 08:29:17 am by H C Andersen »

The link to the bailiff's Notice of Enforcement is in the opening post.
The NoE is dated 1st November 2024 and the deadline is 23:59 on Friday the 15th Nov.
The amount demanded is £279. £204 Council and £75 bailiff fee.
The OP has already confirmed that the address on the NoE is correct.
If the £279 is not paid then the bailiff will eventually visit the current address and a further fee of £235 will be added.

Given the recent nature of the NoE and the elapsed time between the NoE and the original contravention, 18th June 2023, I think it highly probable that the Council has appelied to the TEC to have the warrant re-issued to the OP's current address from some other currently unknown address where the bailiff was unable to enforce.

Local Authority Warrants of Control are not posted to the Registered Keeper. They are passed electronically to the Enforcement Agent companies. The missing docs are the PCN, Charge Cert and Order for Recovery, all of which would have been posted to the address held by the DVLA on the 18th June.

I suggest the OP phones the TEC and ask for the date that the warrant was originally sealed (issued), the address used and whether and when was it re-sealed (re-issued)? Tel: 0300-1231059.

The OP could also phone LBHF and ask for the address used on the PCN and following notices.

IMO, something's awry with timings here. It might just be minor inaccuracies in the OP's narrative or possibly something more significant.

The first time i was made aware of the incident was when I received a text from Marston Recovery at the start of November 2024 indicating it had moved to enforcement stage. As i was unaware of this incident, i deleted the text assuming it was a scam and emailed the Marston customer service to clarify if this was a legitimate text. No response has been received so far.

I then received the below document in the post to my new address which confirmed this was a legitimate case, at which point the liability is now £279:


This was read that the link was merely confirmation that this was a legitimate case, not a procedural notice i.e. NoE. The NoE is dated 1 Nov. so logically could not have been sent after the OP's conversation with Marston which itself was only prompted by the text at the 'start of November' which was then deleted and followed by a phone call all prior to the NoE arriving on or about 5 Nov. But what if the OP is a few days out? Perhaps the text and conversation took place prior to/on the 1 Nov. and that in their conversation with Marston - which was prompted only by a text- they gave away their new address which hitherto Marston did not know. Otherwise is it one hell of a coincidence.

If this is correct then the likelihood that there wasn't(and possibly still isn't) a properly made out warrant remains and needs to be examined IMO. Having a NoE with the correct address, possibly posted after the conversation, does not disprove this possibility. This could remove the £75 and paying now would avoid the £235.

OP, what do you remember about your conversation and did you give them your address?