Free Traffic Legal Advice

Hello all, I have found this site via an MSE forum post. Unfortunately, I did not find it when I previously tried to find out some information to try to resolve a bad situation I find myself in:

I have a PCN against me from Brent Council which I did not receive. I was unaware of this until February this year, due to a bailiff attending my property. I was unaware of the contravention, and the PCN and then when the bailiff turned up at my door I was travelling in the Philippines. I seen the lady on my camera but assumed she was a cold-caller as we get a lot of them in my area. When I returned home on 1st February, I was greeted by a hand-written letter from her.

I immediately tried to find out what was happening but couldn't find any further information than what was provided on the hand-written letter and a letter which had been delivered about 2 weeks earlier (which I hadn't received due to being in Asia). When I tried calling the number provided - I got no answer.

When I contacted CDER Group, I was met with hostility and basically told pay it or else, so I contacted Citizen's Advice and Brent Council. Brent Council were helpful and the person I spoke with advised that I contact County Court "to file an out of time declaration on grounds that I did not receive correspondence" - and provided me the phone number (I quote this as I made a note of it at the time and I still have it). I spoke with someone at TEC who emailed me Forms PE2 and PE3 which I completed and contacted a local lawyer to witness me signing at their earliest opportunity. I then scanned them and sent them back to the TEC by email - receiving an email confirmation on 12/2/24.

Thereafter, I haven't heard anything until today when I received a letter from TEC to say that my "application to file a Statutory Declaration/Witness Statement out of time ... has been refused."

I am honestly feeling angry and am at a complete loss.

I have, since filing the forms, found out where the contravention is alleged and it is somewhere that I have visited and, indeed, have incorrectly turned right many times in the past - as the signage is/ was faded. So, I now understand and accept that I have indeed performed a turn where I should not have done (and have since followed the left-turn only when visiting that part of road); I accept full responsibility for the error on my part, but I didn't know about it or receive any PCN for it until a bailiff turned up at my door.

If I had received the PCN then I'd have checked it and, upon finding that I'd been in the wrong - paid the PCN; just as I have done on 2 other previous occasions during my driving lifetime.

I would be truly grateful for any help on how I could move forward with this as I really feel let down by the system right now and a) worrying about bailiffs, and b) having a very significant fine outstanding is causing huge stress on me - all for something I was unaware of and did not receive the correct paperwork for.

Please see attached documents below of CDER Paperwork, TEC Forms PE2 and PE3, and TEC's letter to myself received today.

Thanks,
MPM.

Was the address on your V5C Registration Certificate up-to-date when the contravention occurred ?

Most cases we see on here where bailiffs are at the door, and the OP knows nothing about it are due to failure to keep the V5C up-to-date. PCNs issued by post use the V5C address as supplied to the council by DVLA. They have no legal right to look anywhere else.

Hi, thanks for your reply. I was quite sure that it was correct but I have just double checked and the V5C has my name and address correctly on both the front of it where it has been posted and also section 3.

I tried to find the date of the V5C as the registration was changed over for the car but I wasn't sure when I did that. Both section 3 and section 6 have a date in the bottom left which is 18/11/22.

The contravention was on 22/7/23, so the V5C had the correct name and address when the contravention occurred.

I am very nervous over this as I am in a similar situation to another current poster, in that the refusal letter from TEC is dated 24th May but I didn't receive it until Wednesday - 12th June, and it mentions about only having 14 days to submit an N244.

I am anxiously awaiting bailiffs to come knocking again and am feeling like I just don't know what options I have or where to turn to.

Thanks,
MPM.

Before deciding to file an N244 for review, these reviews can be costly and are often denied.
You need to gather more details from your narrative, specifically regarding whether the address on the warrant of control is your current address. You mentioned being in Asia, but we need to clarify the dates and whether your trip abroad coincided with the contravention debt or the issue date on the Notice of Enforcement (NOE).

It is crucial to understand that receiving an NOE indicates that the warrant address is current. This is significant as it means the NOE would have been sent to a different address, namely the one on the contravention vehicle's V5.

Your car is at risk of bailiff enforcement because the suspension of the enforcement power was lifted when the TEC refused your application. If your car is on finance, it is exempt from enforcement. To offer some reassurance, paragraph 18(a)(d) of Schedule 12 of the Tribunals, Courts and Enforcement Act 2007 prohibits bailiffs from using force to enter a domestic property when recovering an unpaid traffic contravention debt. Therefore, the most you can expect is strong language and a series of demanding letters before the bailiffs move on.

Thank you for the reply.

Re: being in Asia, that was January this year, which is when CDER sent the first letter I attached - dated 15/1/24. Thereafter, an enforcement agent attended my property and put the second (hand-written) letter through my door on 31/1/24. I then returned from Asia on 1/2/24 and seen these letters. The third and final letter came in the post that same week. Meanwhile, that same week, I had contacted Citizen's Advice and Brent Council and it was Brent Council who advised me of the TEC and to file an out of time statement as I hadn't received any PCN.

As to the contravention, it was on 22/7/23 (according to CDER Group letters). I don't deny that I did it; I was unaware at the time that it was a contravention (due to the signage being poor) but I fully admit to turning right in a left-only junction - which from looking on Google, this is known to be a common spot for people getting tickets.

My issue is that I never received a PCN regarding it and the first I knew of it was when I returned from Asia on 1/2/24 to find that I had 2 letters from CDER Group and another following shortly thereafter.

This is why I filed for the out of time, stating I hadn't known anything about a) the contravention or b) that I had a PCN against me for it.

I expected that I'd then receive the original PCN and I'd accept the error of my way and pay the fine. However, when I received the letter from TEC on Wednesday saying it had been refused, I'm just at a complete loss. I can't afford to go to lawyers and get them involved and I can't afford the absurd fee that the enforcement company have applied so that's why I'm worried about them returning.

Thank you for trying to ease the nerves somewhat. However, my car is parked on my driveway - so, if they return then they could take it?

This is a situation I have never found myself in before and is all because I turned right at a stupid junction which has poor signage and which many other people have done the same thing - for years. I didn't receive a PCN so I knew nothing about it but I've then tried to put things right and get the PCN applied so I can accept fault and pay it - only to have the 'system' say no. And why, exactly? Because someone on a power trip decided so? This has made me extremely frustrated with our legal system. When I try to put things right, it's simply whether someone at TEC decides so?

I am and have been completely willing to accept fault and pay the PCN since finding out about it but CDER Group referencing my "continual and wilful refusal to pay [my] outstanding debt" and their additional, ludicrous, fees are two things which I am not willing to accept.

From your response, I think you are suggesting that it may not be best to submit an N244. But if I don't then what options do I have? Wait for bailiffs to move on? What if they don't? Is there anything I can do to resolve all of this? If I sell the car or change the owner of the car to my mother-in-law, will that prevent them from being able to take the car away?

Thanks,
MPM

I didn't receive a PCN so I knew nothing about it

It was three notices in total that you didn't receive
I can't see any where here or, more importantly, on the PE2 where you've offered an explanation for why that was or might have been?

This case is a gamble.
Right now the bill is £514 to settle.
or
You could apply for a review via an N244 application at £119.

The £119 option is for a review on the papers, which like anything done on the papers could be a recipe for disaster. While a hearing is more expensive at £303, going for the cheaper option may end up being a false economy.

Having now read your OOT submission, I can see why it was rejected. What a pity you didn't seek help on here, or by 'bailiffadviceonline', before submitting it, but what is done is done, unfortunately.

Nowhere on the reason for requesting an OOT submission do you mention that the address on your V5C is correct therefore there was no reason for the statutory enforcement documents to not be received. I checked your reg number using "check ved" and the last V5C was issued on 18th November 2022, so just as you said here. However, all three documents went astray, so either there is an error you haven't spotted on your V5 or the post was thrown away by persons unknown when you were abroad.

Is it worth going for a review of the TEC decision ? At the stage you are at, it is now a matter of minimising the amount you may have to pay. A papers-based review will be by a county court judge looking at your submission, and also the objection submitted by the enforcing council. They will say they sent all the statutory documents to the V5 address and none were returned. There is no opportunity to speak to the judge to further explain your situation or answer questions. For this same reason, we don't recommend papers-based adjudications on this forum, so if you want a fair hearing, it needs to be the higher cost option of an interview with the judge "in chambers".  However if he declines to order the OOT be accepted, you would have the cost of this, plus the existing bailiff fees to pay. A very hard decision to make ! 

cp8759 - what would you advise if your partner/ son/ daughter was in this situation?

@raphaeldonatello I suspect I'd just offer to pay the £303 fee myself to test the argument. But then, I'd be able to look at all the papers including the V5C to work out what's gone wrong. If you want to send me unredacted copies of all the documents privately, drop me a PM and I can send you my email address.

If you attempt an N244 then you may or may not get the fees back, the simple truth is that we cannot say for sure because we've never tested the argument properly.

The one word of warning I would give you is you cannot change the owner of the car, there are specific rules around any transfers of property effect for the purposes of evading enforcement being deemed invalid by law. After all, the people who drafted these laws weren't born yesterday. So it would still be your car and it could still be taken and sold.

The question worth asking is how much is the car actually worth? I don't know the latest figures but I have heard before that if a car is worth under £10k, then it's not actually worth the hassle and expense of removing it and selling it at auction.