3. Advice request - Parking Outside Bay
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Advice request - Parking Outside Bay
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I appealed a PCN for being parked outside of a bay details and the response with the Council photograph is below

I'd appreciate advice as to if this is worth formally challenging

My Submission

I respectfully wish to challenge the parking ticket issued to me yesterday for apparently “not parking correctly within the markings of the bay or space”

I note that your Civil Enforcement Procedures obtained within the link below in respect of this alleged violation (code 24) states

WPPP Civil Enforcement Procedures

“Not parked correctly within the markings of the bay or space. The contravention occurs when one or more wheels of a vehicle are seen to be parked outside of the markings of a parking bay/space. The fact that the wheels of the vehicle are parked outside of the markings of the parking bay/space means that other parts of the vehicle will be encroaching on the available room in adjacent bays/spaces or causing an obstruction”

Upon seeing the parking ticket attached to my windscreen I took a photograph of my vehicle (attached) which was parked under the appropriate road sign as I had assumed at the time I was being incorrectly charged for parking beyond an hour hence why I didn’t take a photograph from the front of the vehicle.

Whilst I didn’t park my car straight I believe my wheels were within the bay but in the event you have photographic evidence that my passenger side front wheel wasn’t, my photograph does evidence that I wasn’t encroaching on the available room in an adjacent bay or causing any form of obstruction and that the parking sign gave no warning that I must park wholly within a bay.

I hope our visit to XX won’t be tainted by enforcing this ticket.

I look forward to hearing from you.

Kind regards


Response


I have received your challenge dated 14th August 2023 to the above Penalty
Charge Notice and after careful consideration of the circumstances have found
no grounds for the cancellation of the charge.

The Penalty Charge Notice was correctly issued. Your vehicle was not parked
correctly within the markings of the bay or space (see attached photographs
below).

You say that your vehicle was not encroaching on the available room in the
adjacent bay or causing any form of obstruction. You also say that the sign gave
no warning that you must park wholly within the marked bay.

However, the Parking Regulations require proper parking of vehicles in order not
to endanger or inconvenience other users. Where vehicles are parked over bay
markings, valuable parking space is lost and in narrow roads, serious congestion
can arise as a result, as well as restricted access for emergency vehicles.
Please also note that there are no requirements for there to be signs at every
parking area/bay to warn drivers that a Penalty Charge Notice will be issued if
parked in contravention of the parking restrictions. The bay is clearly marked and
it is the driver’s responsibility to ensure that they have parked fully within the
marked bay. Your reasons are therefore not accepted as grounds for cancellation
of the Penalty Charge Notice


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Re: Advice request - Parking Outside Bay
« Reply #1 on: »
Please start by showing us the PCN (no redactions), at the moment we don't even know where this is so we can't do the most basic of checks.
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I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor or a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193 and I abide by the SPMF service standards.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order
Re: Advice request - Parking Outside Bay
« Reply #2 on: »
Apologies, see attached, Chapel St, Ĺlangollen

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Re: Advice request - Parking Outside Bay
« Reply #3 on: »
And the back? Mistakes often the 'small print'
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Re: Advice request - Parking Outside Bay
« Reply #4 on: »
Back here, not included the Welsh language section

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Re: Advice request - Parking Outside Bay
« Reply #5 on: »
OK so there's the 0845 argument as per Paul Bateman v Derbyshire County Council (DJ00037-2209, 10 November 2022) and I have this handy FOI response to use as evidence of their wrongdoing.

Then there's the requirement to convey that you must park within bay markings, see the decisions linked in column D of rows 297 to 307 here.

Finally I will request the traffic order. For now you only need to make informal reps, these will undoubtedly be rejected but it gets the ball rolling.

Dear Denbighshire County Council,

Firstly I challenge liability because the alleged contravention did not occur. There was no indication that vehicles must park within the painted bays, if sucha  requirement exists in the traffic regulation order this has not been conveyed to motorists.

I refer you to the decision in Cooper v London Borough of Richmond Upon Thames (1990292199, 18 July 2000) available from LINK1 as followed in the following cases:

Ernesto Villa Blandino v London Borough of Barnet (2110474195, 28 November 2011) at LINK2
Michal Budai v London Borough of Barnet (2120008348, 06 February 2012) at LINK3
Caroline Ratner v London Borough of Barnet (2140338414, 10 September 2014) at LINK4
Cheryl Kuczynski v London Borough of Barnet (2160033974, 30 April 2016) at LINK5
Sultan Gangji v London Borough of Barnet (2160439695, 15 November 2016) at LINK6
Tecwyn Evans v London Borough of Merton (2160499981, 05 January 2017) at LINK7
Gerald Halibard v London Borough of Barnet (2170225166, 15 June 2017) at LINK8
Lamin Sesay v London Borough of Southwark (2180188510, 22 June 2018) at LINK9
Anthony Westmore v London Borough of Barnet (2180064744, 15 March 2018) at LINK10
Keren Lewin v London Borough of Haringey (2190290943, 28 August 2019) at LINK11

Secondly the penalty demanded exceeds the amount due in the circumstances of the case, because the PCN provides a premium rate number that attracts a surcharge for the council's benefit. For the reasons explained in Paul Bateman v Derbyshire County Council (DJ00037-2209, 10 November 2022) available from LINK12.

In light of the above the penalty charge must be cancelled.

Yours faithfully,

I will PM you the links to put in the representation, they will redirect to the same locations as given on the spreadsheet but if you give them the links I'll PM you, we can use the click count to confirm whether they've looked at them or not (obviously do not click on that link yourself as we want the click count to remain at zero). If they don't click on them, we can then prove they've failed to consider all of the representations. If they say in the rejection that they've considered everything you've said, we've got them for lying as well.
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I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor or a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193 and I abide by the SPMF service standards.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order
Re: Advice request - Parking Outside Bay
« Reply #6 on: »
Great stuff CP, much appreciated
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Re: Advice request - Parking Outside Bay
« Reply #7 on: »
Quote from: sooty12113 on September 27, 2023, 09:33:56 am
Okay thanks Ivan, as I've already made a challenge how do I do this now ?

Also given because the challenge had the effect of extending the discount period by a further 14 days (£25 payable instead of £50) I have to decide if a further challenge is worth it, what are your thoughts on me succeeding, accepting of course that you haven't yet seen the traffic order ?

@sooty12113 you'll have to wait for the notice to owner and then make representations against that, using the draft above.

In practice virtually all councils reoffer the discount at the notice to owner stage as long as you make a representations within the initial 14 days (the notice to owner doesn't tell you about this because by law in can't, but we see enough cases to be able to say that that's how things work).

Please try and stick to keeping all relevant exchanges on here, otherwise when it comes to looking at the thread in the future (especially when it comes to deciding whether to appeal the Traffic Penalty Tribunal) we won't have the full history to hand.
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I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor or a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193 and I abide by the SPMF service standards.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order
Re: Advice request - Parking Outside Bay
« Reply #8 on: »
Just noticed another potential line of defence, Denbighshire Council say they will respond to formal challenges within 28 days. I made my challenge on 14/8/23 but they didn't reply until 23/9/23 does this invalidate anything, as previously stated they re-offered the discount if paid with 14 days
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Re: Advice request - Parking Outside Bay
« Reply #9 on: »
Legal limit for response to formal challenges, (against a Notice to Owner), is 56 days.
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Re: Advice request - Parking Outside Bay
« Reply #10 on: »
Okay, thanks
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Re: Advice request - Parking Outside Bay
« Reply #11 on: »
Just to add this was an informal challenge but I assume unless I hear to the contary thaf by definition there is no statutory time to respond
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Re: Advice request - Parking Outside Bay
« Reply #12 on: »
Quote from: sooty12113 on September 29, 2023, 06:16:31 pm
Just to add this was an informal challenge but I assume unless I hear to the contary thaf by definition there is no statutory time to respond
Correct, but they are under a duty as a public body with penal powers granted by Parliament, to act fairly and expeditiously. However, they must issue the Notice to Owner within 6 months, and if over 56 days would need to justify this.

Have a look here: -
https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/civil-enforcement-of-parking-contraventions/guidance-for-local-authorities-on-enforcing-parking-restrictions
Councils MUST have regard to this guidance under the TMA 2004.
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Re: Advice request - Parking Outside Bay
« Reply #13 on: »
Could you please go back and measure the width of the bay? You'll need to use a tape measure and get photos, it's occurred to me that it might be below the minimum legal width.

I have also got hold of the traffic order:

The Denbighshire County Council (Prohibition and Restriction of Waiting and Loading and Parking Places) (Consolidation) Order 2021.
The Denbighshire County Council (Prohibition and Restriction of Waiting and Loading and Parking Places) (Consolidation) Variation No.1 Llangollen Order 2022.

Map tiles: BH171a, BI170a, BI171a & BI172a.

The relevant requirement is at article 71(v) of the 2021 Order, but of course the point remains that it is for the council to inform you of that.
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I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor or a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193 and I abide by the SPMF service standards.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order
Re: Advice request - Parking Outside Bay
« Reply #14 on: »
Sorry for the delayed reply, I've  been away on holiday. Thanks for obtaining the order, alas I live 100 miles away from where I got the ticket so am not in a position to measure the bay.
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