3. 53J Costons Lane Greenford (UNCLEAR SIGNAGE)
« previous next »
Pages: [1] 2

Author Topic: 53J Costons Lane Greenford (UNCLEAR SIGNAGE)  (Read 1452 times)

0 Members and 51 Guests are viewing this topic.

53J Costons Lane Greenford (UNCLEAR SIGNAGE)
« on: »
I have just been sent a PCN for this left turn onto costons lane (failing to comply with a restriction on vehicles entering a pedestrian zone)

I hadnt a clue and couldnt see the sign at all. It doesnt look like a pedestrian zone either.












GROUNDS OF REPRESENTATION:


COSTONS LANE (Maps hasnt got the signage up yet):
https://www.google.com/maps/place/Costons+Ln,+Greenford/@51.5318565,-0.3494764,3a,75y,203.08h,84.13t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1snjej0DMtUUzHq-wPRbW2vQ!2e0!6shttps:%2F%2Fstreetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com%2Fv1%2Fthumbnail%3Fcb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile%26w%3D900%26h%3D600%26pitch%3D5.871931226502838%26panoid%3Dnjej0DMtUUzHq-wPRbW2vQ%26yaw%3D203.07660494515846!7i13312!8i6656!4m6!3m5!1s0x48761294211ead1d:0x242f5756e10392c6!8m2!3d51.5305006!4d-0.3484013!16s%2Fg%2F1ttdxy7w?entry=ttu&g_ep=EgoyMDI1MDcwNy4wIKXMDSoASAFQAw%3D%3D



=======================




The wording of the letter says |the grounds for making an appeal are set out in the form"
And it says you may have to pay £240 if you make representations before 28 days..

THis is such a money grabbing scheme and it was an honest mistake. I think they are new and unclear signs.
Any idea how to appeal it safely?

Chris
Logged

Share on Bluesky Share on Facebook

Re: 53J Costons Lane Greenford (UNCLEAR SIGNAGE)
« Reply #1 on: »
I just took pictures of the signage from a road pov.. theres no way a car could see it unless craning their neck, which is a ridiculous requirement for all turns when driving.
So I would argue the signage is insufficient.







Logged
Re: 53J Costons Lane Greenford (UNCLEAR SIGNAGE)
« Reply #2 on: »
And no advance warning sign(s)?
Logged
Re: 53J Costons Lane Greenford (UNCLEAR SIGNAGE)
« Reply #3 on: »
Quote from: H C Andersen on July 10, 2025, 06:27:57 pm
And no advance warning sign(s)?


No none that I could see!

You have to be turning before you see the sign and that is a very busy road.
Logged
Re: 53J Costons Lane Greenford (UNCLEAR SIGNAGE)
« Reply #4 on: »
Quote from: H C Andersen on July 10, 2025, 06:27:57 pm
And no advance warning sign(s)?


Is unclear signage enough?
I have seen an appeal that won with that argument but not sure on exact wording to use,
Logged
Re: 53J Costons Lane Greenford (UNCLEAR SIGNAGE)
« Reply #5 on: »
This forums traffic seems to have died off recently?
Has pepipoo migrated again?
Logged
Re: 53J Costons Lane Greenford (UNCLEAR SIGNAGE)
« Reply #6 on: »
Quote from: C_H_R_I_S on July 21, 2025, 10:28:38 am
This forums traffic seems to have died off recently?
Has pepipoo migrated again?
No, and there's plenty keeping me busy, anyway
Logged
Re: 53J Costons Lane Greenford (UNCLEAR SIGNAGE)
« Reply #7 on: »
Have you viewed their video and could it be posted here?

Is unclear signage enough?

The legal test is:

Traffic signs
18.—(1) Where an order relating to any road has been made, the order making authority shall take such steps as are necessary to secure—

(a)before the order comes into force, the placing on or near the road of such traffic signs in such positions as the order making authority may consider requisite for securing that adequate information as to the effect of the order is made available to persons using the road;

(b)the maintenance of such signs for so long as the order remains in force

Prescribed traffic signs(under the Traffic Sign etc. Regs) form part of this duty, but not its totality. Where, as here, the regulatory signs are placed such that they cannot be seen and read before a driver has committed themselves to their manoeuvre the presence of advance 'warning' signs is an important consideration.

So, definitive evidence of the presence or otherwise of advance signs is important. GSV is no help as it's too dated.

Logged
Re: 53J Costons Lane Greenford (UNCLEAR SIGNAGE)
« Reply #8 on: »
I think this may be a new one so won't be anything on tribunal yet but they can be allowed for unclear signage turning left with no advance signs.

Logged
Re: 53J Costons Lane Greenford (UNCLEAR SIGNAGE)
« Reply #9 on: »
So just when does a sign become unreadable or not noticeable to a motorist ? Looking at the video, the sign is higher than the top of the passing bus. This is surely wrong. There must come a point when the sign cannot be seen due to its height. This is not the only example I've seen recently on this forum.
Logged
Re: 53J Costons Lane Greenford (UNCLEAR SIGNAGE)
« Reply #10 on: »
This one of Ealing's new school streets that you've been unlucky enough to have entered at times of enforcement. https://www.ealing.gov.uk/info/201146/neighbourhood_and_streets/2610/ealing_school_streets

According to this, it was launched 03/2024 so less than 18 months ago
https://www.ealing.gov.uk/download/downloads/id/20371/officer_decision_report_including_eaa_-_tranche_7_school_streets.pdf



Do you have a dashcam on your vehicle? Might be worth trying to argue it with that. It appears you can't actually see it until you're committed to the manoeuvere, if at all.

If not, I'm local and can't stand ealing council and their money grabbing. I'd be more than happy to drive the exact same route and supply my dashcam footage to assist with the unclear signage point.

Ealing council will refuse the appeal, so you really need to be ready to take this a lot further.
« Last Edit: July 22, 2025, 12:44:48 pm by beedmo »
Logged
Re: 53J Costons Lane Greenford (UNCLEAR SIGNAGE)
« Reply #11 on: »
So, I had a little trip up that way earlier. There is an advanced warning sign of the no right turn. The arguments I can see are that there is far more important signage for drivers to pay attention to, like the traffic lights for the pedestrian crossing just before entry into that road.

Even with a decent phone camera, it struggles to read the sign details from closer to the bus stop you see in the dash cam footage than the sign. You'd need someone smarter than me to argue that though. I will simply post my images and dashcam and watch from afar going forward.





Dashcam
https://i.imgur.com/6itzGDq.mp4
« Last Edit: July 22, 2025, 03:05:36 pm by beedmo »
Logged
Re: 53J Costons Lane Greenford (UNCLEAR SIGNAGE)
« Reply #12 on: »
That's a good advance sign in my view. Some adjudicators though are much more accommodating of the visibility (or lack of) of the primary sign possibly because one cannot be sure of the view of the advance sign at the time (eg that's a bus route).
Logged
Re: 53J Costons Lane Greenford (UNCLEAR SIGNAGE)
« Reply #13 on: »
Yes I recently double checked and can confimr that sign.

I obviously didnt see it or I wouldnt have turned there.

There is also another factor. If you are coming to the turn after just turning right onto that main road you would not see that advanced turn sign.

Also if a bus is on your left it would block those signs.

Given the relatively new life of that sign maybe they would allow it as well?

I will begin to write an appeal if someone with decent legalese could help:::::



Dear Sir/Madam,

I am writing to formally appeal the Penalty Charge Notice issued under contravention code 53J. I respectfully request its cancellation on the following grounds:

Unclear or Obstructed Signage: The signage orientation is set in a way that is practically invisible until you have already turned onto the street. This is inadequate especically when you consider the speed and througput of the Greenford road. Drivers simply are overwhelmed by other signs and stimuli to be able to safely react to that signage.

Lack of Advance Warning for Certain Directions: When I drive into Greenford Road from Costons Lane on the opposite side of Greenford Road, there is no visible advance signage alerting drivers to the restriction ahead. This makes it especially difficult for drivers unfamiliar with the area to respond appropriately.
The advanced warning sign is also positioned near to a bus stop which means any bus or van can easily obscure the sign from view.

Recent Signage Installation: This restriction appears to be a new addition to the area. As a regular road user, I had not previously encountered this sign or restriction and had no reason to expect it.

First-Time Offence: If an offence did occur, I kindly request leniency on the grounds that this is my first such incident and was unintentional, caused by unclear visibility and unfamiliar signage.

I hope you will consider these points and exercise discretion in this case. I would appreciate the cancellation of this PCN.
Logged
Re: 53J Costons Lane Greenford (UNCLEAR SIGNAGE)
« Reply #14 on: »
Quote from: beedmo on July 22, 2025, 03:00:23 pm
So, I had a little trip up that way earlier. There is an advanced warning sign of the no right turn. The arguments I can see are that there is far more important signage for drivers to pay attention to, like the traffic lights for the pedestrian crossing just before entry into that road.

Even with a decent phone camera, it struggles to read the sign details from closer to the bus stop you see in the dash cam footage than the sign. You'd need someone smarter than me to argue that though. I will simply post my images and dashcam and watch from afar going forward.


Dashcam
https://i.imgur.com/6itzGDq.mp4

Thankyou for this helpful footage Beedmo

AS you can see there is a turning opposite the advanced warning sign that you can turn ONTO greenford road from.
Anyone coming from there would not see this advanced sign.
Maybe your footage of the sign turn could help my case.
Logged
Pages: [1] 2
« previous next »
  3. 53J Costons Lane Greenford (UNCLEAR SIGNAGE)