3. 33J Hillingdon Bus Route
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33J Hillingdon Bus Route
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Hi chaps

Faced this issue today of going through a restricted bus route on Vine Street in Uxbridge under Hillingdon Council
See attached images (ignore date and names as details have been modified)

Search of the previous forum reveals this type of notice has been challenged with the technical argument:

----------------

The Penalty Charge exceeds the amount due in the circumstances of the case.

Your PCN appears not to comply with the applicable legislation.

On page two, under ‘Making Representation’, first para, final sentence, states "We may disregard any representations received after the period of 28 days beginning with the date of this PCN"

Whereas the legislation prescribes that you may only 'disregard any such representations which are received by them after the end of the period of 28 days beginning with the date on which the penalty charge notice in question was served.'
This is clearly prejudicial; curtailing the time I legally have the right to make such representations.

Similarly, at the bottom of the same page, the PCN misstates the point in time when you may legally serve a Charge Certificate; making the same error of timescale.
This potentially has the same effect as the first discrepancy; curtailing the time legally available to me.
As the PCN does not appear compliant with the relevant legislation I believe it a nullity and no penalty is due.


I look forward to your early confirmation the PCN has been cancel


-----------------------------


Will this argument still stand please?

Thanks in advance !

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Re: 33J Hillingdon Bus Route
« Reply #1 on: »
Not sure where you found that information, but it's not correct. However the PCN is flawed, and the point is rather more simple than you might think. Here's a draft representation:

Dear London Borough of Hillingdon,

I challenge liability for PCN X because the penalty demanded exceeds the amount due in the circumstances of the case. This is because the PCN must state that payment of £130 is due before the end of the period of 28 days commencing with the date of the notice, rather than with the date of service of the notice.

In light of the above the PCN is defective and must be cancelled.

Yours faithfully,


Make representations online and keep a screenshot of the confirmation screen.
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I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor or a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193 and I abide by the SPMF service standards.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order
Re: 33J Hillingdon Bus Route
« Reply #2 on: »
Really appreciate the reply, many thanks.

Will report back on their response
« Last Edit: October 01, 2023, 10:31:13 am by rehtaflog »
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Re: 33J Hillingdon Bus Route
« Reply #3 on: »
Quote from: cp8759 on September 30, 2023, 11:42:00 pm
Not sure where you found that information, but it's not correct. However the PCN is flawed, and the point is rather more simple than you might think. Here's a draft representation:

Dear London Borough of Hillingdon,

I challenge liability for PCN X because the penalty demanded exceeds the amount due in the circumstances of the case. This is because the PCN must state that payment of £130 is due before the end of the period of 28 days commencing with the date of the notice, rather than with the date of service of the notice.

In light of the above the PCN is defective and must be cancelled.

Yours faithfully,


Make representations online and keep a screenshot of the confirmation screen.

Is it also worth adding in these additional 2 points?

The PCN states "certain vehicles". What vehicles. It does not particularise which vehicles.

Also the legislation states one or other of the grounds.

Representations against penalty charge notice

1(1)Where it appears to a person on whom a penalty charge notice has been served under section 4 (Penalty charges for road traffic contraventions) of this Act (in this Schedule referred to as “the recipient”) that one or other of the grounds mentioned in sub-paragraph (4) below is satisfied, he may make representations to that effect to the enforcing authority.


https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukla/2003/3/...edule/1/enacted
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Re: 33J Hillingdon Bus Route
« Reply #4 on: »
The "one or other grounds" is just semantics and I don't see that getting you anywhere.

As for the type of vehicle argument, if the sign is visible in the picture on the PCN then adjudicators say that that is enough to tell you what type of vehicle the route is restricted to. So, can you make out the sign on the original PCN? Obviously the scan is not the best quality so we can't really tell.
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I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor or a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193 and I abide by the SPMF service standards.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order
Re: 33J Hillingdon Bus Route
« Reply #5 on: »
Quote from: cp8759 on October 01, 2023, 11:25:59 am
The "one or other grounds" is just semantics and I don't see that getting you anywhere.

As for the type of vehicle argument, if the sign is visible in the picture on the PCN then adjudicators say that that is enough to tell you what type of vehicle the route is restricted to. So, can you make out the sign on the original PCN? Obviously the scan is not the best quality so we can't really tell.

Original PCN uses the same photo as the one attached to the original post. However as it is downscaled in size you cannot make out the signage on paper.
You can however see the signage from the pic attached on their website.

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Re: 33J Hillingdon Bus Route
« Reply #6 on: »
In have won decisions on the number of grounds.
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IF YOU RECEIVE A MOVING TRAFFIC PCN PLEASE READ THIS BEFORE MAKING A REPRESENTATION:

https://www.ftla.uk/the-flame-pit/moving-traffic-pcns-missing-mandatory-information-the-london-local-authorities-a/msg102639/#msg102639


How do we get more people to fight their PCNs?

https://www.ftla.uk/the-flame-pit/how-do-we-get-more-people-to-fight-their-pcns/msg41917/#msg41917

If you do not even make a challenge, you will surely join "The Mugged Club".

I am not omniscient. cp8759 and mrmustard are true geniuses. I know my place in the hierarchy of The Three Musketeers. 😊 "The Clinician", "The Gentleman" and "The Showman"

My e mail address for councils:

J.BOND007@H.M.S.S.c/oVAUXHALLBRIDGE/LICENSEDTOEXPOSE.SCAMS.CO.UK

Last mission accomplished:

https://www.ftla.uk/the-flame-pit/southwark-to-r
Re: 33J Hillingdon Bus Route
« Reply #7 on: »
I don't think that would work with this PCN. It says "If there is any reason why you think that you should not have to pay the charge...", and a PCN must be read as a whole.

You could run the argument but it would be a gamble, I'm pretty sure Mr Styles wouldn't be sympathetic.
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I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor or a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193 and I abide by the SPMF service standards.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order
Re: 33J Hillingdon Bus Route
« Reply #8 on: »
Submitted this:
I challenge liability for this PCN because the penalty demanded exceeds the amount due in the circumstances of the case. This is because the PCN must state that payment of £130 is due before the end of the period of 28 days commencing with the date of the notice, rather than with the date of service of the notice.
The PCN also states using a route restricted certain vehicles. It does not particularise which type of vehicles.
In addition the PCN is non-compliant as it fetters to one ground only. The legislation states appeals can be made on "one or other of the grounds"
In light of the above the PCN is defective and must be cancelled. I ask that my appeal be allowed.


Received the below today along with an appeal form

Any ideas on the next steps please?



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Re: 33J Hillingdon Bus Route
« Reply #9 on: »
The response fails to consider anything you've said, it mentioned non-existent mitigation, and the wrong 28 day period has had a lot of success at the tribunal over the past few weeks.

Would you like me to represent you at the tribunal?
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I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor or a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193 and I abide by the SPMF service standards.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order
Re: 33J Hillingdon Bus Route
« Reply #10 on: »
Yes, that would be hugely appreciated

PM Sent
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Re: 33J Hillingdon Bus Route
« Reply #11 on: »
Please could this mix up be avoided in future?
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IF YOU RECEIVE A MOVING TRAFFIC PCN PLEASE READ THIS BEFORE MAKING A REPRESENTATION:

https://www.ftla.uk/the-flame-pit/moving-traffic-pcns-missing-mandatory-information-the-london-local-authorities-a/msg102639/#msg102639


How do we get more people to fight their PCNs?

https://www.ftla.uk/the-flame-pit/how-do-we-get-more-people-to-fight-their-pcns/msg41917/#msg41917

If you do not even make a challenge, you will surely join "The Mugged Club".

I am not omniscient. cp8759 and mrmustard are true geniuses. I know my place in the hierarchy of The Three Musketeers. 😊 "The Clinician", "The Gentleman" and "The Showman"

My e mail address for councils:

J.BOND007@H.M.S.S.c/oVAUXHALLBRIDGE/LICENSEDTOEXPOSE.SCAMS.CO.UK

Last mission accomplished:

https://www.ftla.uk/the-flame-pit/southwark-to-r
Re: 33J Hillingdon Bus Route
« Reply #12 on: »
DNC'ed.
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I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor or a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193 and I abide by the SPMF service standards.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order
Re: 33J Hillingdon Bus Route
« Reply #13 on: »
Quote from: cp8759 on November 15, 2023, 09:39:28 am
DNC'ed.

Huge thankyou for supporting throughout the process and appreciate all your assistance and advice with this. A great result :)
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Re: 33J Hillingdon Bus Route
« Reply #14 on: »
Hi!
It appears Hillingdon Council have now updated the wording of their PCN for the same bus route

II have started a new thread here

33J Hillingdon Bus Route (10-2024 edition)

and I feel any more information from your previous and current experiences dealing with them could be of great help.
Thank you for your time!
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