Author Topic: 12 - Newham - Parked Without Valid Permit - No Road Markings or Signage in Sight.  (Read 1902 times)

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Hi all,

I received this PCN on Sunday for parking in a CPZ without a valid resident's permit.

I live in the borough of Barnet where there are CPZs galore. Never have I come across restricted road parking without some sort of road markings (i.e painted bays) or signage within view of the parking space.

Considering the above, and the fact that I have parked here in the past without issue, I had no idea I was parking in a restricted area.

Having searched around on GSV I found that the council's image showing CPZ signage is around the corner. Is that really sufficient?

Have I got an argument to make that there was no indication whatsoever of parking restrictions within view of where I parked?

Thanks in advance for your help!

GSV of "assumed" CPZ signage: https://maps.app.goo.gl/aAvBUfHw73dtHDJR9
GSV of parking location: https://maps.app.goo.gl/Wg3Sb6ydPhHXzEer8






« Last Edit: October 27, 2023, 11:42:07 am by Londoner »

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Not a CPZ, an RPZ...Restricted Parking Zone ... really are the invention of the devil.

They specifically must have entry signs like the one the CEo pics show and cannot have any of the normal road markings such as yellow lines.
I would normally expect repeater signs in larger zones but not mandatory.

It comes down to whether or not an adjudicator can be persuaded that the sign (there seems only one) complies with the regs that require signs to adequately convey the restriction... I'm 50/50 on that one

See what others have to say, they may know summat I don't for this area

Google Street View latest is 2015, which is, I suspect, too old to show the signs. So if you want to fight this one, you'll need to go and take your own photos. Much depends on where the entry sign is located, but from the look of the location, I suspect the whole of this development, called Britannia Village, is an RPZ, or has some pretty tight parking restrictions. I say this because the DLR station West Silvertown is quite close.

Google Street View latest is 2015, which is, I suspect, too old to show the signs. So if you want to fight this one, you'll need to go and take your own photos. Much depends on where the entry sign is located, but from the look of the location, I suspect the whole of this development, called Britannia Village, is an RPZ, or has some pretty tight parking restrictions. I say this because the DLR station West Silvertown is quite close.

I did take my own photos of where I parked, showing there were no road signs within view of the car, if that helps?

These signs occur in all of the Newham Resident Parking Zones. They use them when there is only one entrance/exit into a street or set of streets. EG a cul-de-sac. The signs will be placed at the entrance and it's not possible to access such streets without passing the signs. There won't be any repeater signs. The restricted hours are on the signs and are the same as the parent zone, in this case Royal Docks West (RDW).

Not a CPZ, an RPZ...Restricted Parking Zone ... really are the invention of the devil.
Not quite, it's a permit parking area or PPA, which is not the same as an RPZ.

@Londoner please give us the PCN number and number plate.
I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor or a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193 and I abide by the SPMF service standards.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order

Not a CPZ, an RPZ...Restricted Parking Zone ... really are the invention of the devil.
Not quite, it's a permit parking area or PPA, which is not the same as an RPZ.

@Londoner please give us the PCN number and number plate.

PN 3 7 0 2 2 7 3 4
Bravo.Kilo.One.Seven.Peter.Hotel.Universe

These are the council photos:















I've requested the traffic order, in the meantime are you in a position to go back and check the signage? It would be helpful to know if there are any repeater signs within the zone. We have won cases in the past where a zone has a number of streets and no repeaters, though I have to say this one isn't very big.
I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor or a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193 and I abide by the SPMF service standards.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order


I've requested the traffic order, in the meantime are you in a position to go back and check the signage? It would be helpful to know if there are any repeater signs within the zone. We have won cases in the past where a zone has a number of streets and no repeaters, though I have to say this one isn't very big.

I am confident there were no repeater signs as I checked upon leaving.  The signs that are in the council photos I must have missed as they were facing the other way when I drove past them (although it is clear to see from GSV the location they are in).
It would be half hour drive in each direction for me to return to that location, which I'd rather avoid doing.

These are the permit parking area cases I have to hand:

Stephanie Martin v Knowsley Metropolitan Borough Council (KI00006-1905, 21 June 2019)
Shetal Patel v London Borough of Harrow (2220650316, 27 October 2022)
Sabera Lee v London Borough of Harrow (2220689923, 04 November 2022)
Ameeta Kumar v London Borough of Harrow (2220814027, 17 December 2022)
John Fellows v London Borough of Harrow (2230367923, 18 September 2023)

In essence, the argument to be made is that a single sign at the entrance to the zone is inadequate, and the council should have provided repeaters. Try drafting a representation based on those decisions and post it on here and we'll tidy it up for you.
I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor or a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193 and I abide by the SPMF service standards.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order

These are the permit parking area cases I have to hand:

Stephanie Martin v Knowsley Metropolitan Borough Council (KI00006-1905, 21 June 2019)
Shetal Patel v London Borough of Harrow (2220650316, 27 October 2022)
Sabera Lee v London Borough of Harrow (2220689923, 04 November 2022)
Ameeta Kumar v London Borough of Harrow (2220814027, 17 December 2022)
John Fellows v London Borough of Harrow (2230367923, 18 September 2023)

In essence, the argument to be made is that a single sign at the entrance to the zone is inadequate, and the council should have provided repeaters. Try drafting a representation based on those decisions and post it on here and we'll tidy it up for you.

Thanks. Will get to work.

See below my initial draft for appeal to council. I will be upfront in saying I drafted part of this appeal with help from ChatGPT. I welcome and look forward to any feedback.


To whom this may concern,

I am writing to appeal a Penalty Charge Notice that was issued to me on [Date] for parking without a valid resident parking permit in [Location].

Upon receiving the PCN, I carefully reviewed the circumstances surrounding the issuance of the notice. I acknowledge that there is a sign at the entrance of the access road displaying parking restrictions. However, I would like to bring to your attention that this is the only sign in the area and it is located approximately 120 meters away from the place where I was parked. Also there were no repeater signs within view of my parking space, which could have provided clear and unambiguous notice of the parking restrictions in place. I have also parked here in the past without issue, further reinforcing my belief that there were no parking restrictions in place in the location where I parked.

I believe that it is imperative for residents and visitors alike to be provided with adequate and conspicuous signage to ensure compliance with parking regulations. In this instance, the absence of repeater signs in close proximity to my parking space created an unintentional oversight on my part.

I kindly request that you reconsider the issuance of this Penalty Charge Notice, taking into consideration the absence of clear and visible signage in the vicinity of my parking space. I genuinely value and respect the importance of adhering to parking regulations and assure you that I will exercise increased vigilance in the future.

Enclosed with this appeal letter, please find evidence supporting my claim showing the distance between signage and parking location.

I would be grateful if you could review my case at your earliest convenience. I am confident that, with your understanding of the situation, a fair resolution can be reached.

Thank you for your attention to this matter, and I look forward to your response.

Sincerely,

Londoner


Need to submit by tomorrow to maintain 50% discount. Would you guys be able to share your wisdom re. above reps or if it is good to go?

Thank you!

That looks like a reasonable challenge. I'd fully expect the council to reject it, and you'll likely have to take this to the tribunal in due course.
I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor or a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193 and I abide by the SPMF service standards.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order

I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor or a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193 and I abide by the SPMF service standards.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order