3. 01 - Parked in a restricted street during prescribed hours - Barnet / No signage.
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01 - Parked in a restricted street during prescribed hours - Barnet / No signage.
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I parked on a single yellow line earlier today. Seeing as there were no signs in sight indicating restrictions on the yellow line, I assumed I was good to go. I even double and triple checked 2 separate entrances to the road I parked on for CPZ signs but there were none.

Is there any way out of this one?

GSV of parking location: https://maps.app.goo.gl/DGztUbHm9w7AmP2C6

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Re: 01 - Parked in a restricted street during prescribed hours - Barnet / No signage.
« Reply #1 on: »
It's a real struggle trying to see if the location is in a CPZ, which would explain the lack of signs by the yellow line. However, I have found one of the entry signs, and it's here as you come along the A502 into Golders Green.
https://maps.app.goo.gl/1WEp61YQfmMCRhf68
Here is the map
www.barnet.gov.uk/sites/default/files/assets/citizenportal/documents/parkingroadsandpavements/Parking/GoldersGreenCPZ.pdf
So you look to be bang-to-rights, but post the back of the PCN, so we can check the small print for fatal errors
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Re: 01 - Parked in a restricted street during prescribed hours - Barnet / No signage.
« Reply #2 on: »
Quote from: Incandescent on February 26, 2024, 12:36:57 am
It's a real struggle trying to see if the location is in a CPZ, which would explain the lack of signs by the yellow line. However, I have found one of the entry signs, and it's here as you come along the A502 into Golders Green.
https://maps.app.goo.gl/1WEp61YQfmMCRhf68
Here is the map
www.barnet.gov.uk/sites/default/files/assets/citizenportal/documents/parkingroadsandpavements/Parking/GoldersGreenCPZ.pdf
So you look to be bang-to-rights, but post the back of the PCN, so we can check the small print for fatal errors

Thanks for your reply. The back of the PCN is the standard pre-printed Barnet PCN so I doubt there'll be any errors in that, but have posted below anyway, in addition to CEO pics.

As for the signage you've linked to GSV, that's fair enough, however I did not enter from that direction. Having retraced my steps (or drive rather) the only entry sign I passed was here: https://maps.app.goo.gl/qVq99y42s7GwgxZo6

Am I really expected to be looking out for / memorising every parking sign I drive past 5 minutes before reaching my intended destination?  :(






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Re: 01 - Parked in a restricted street during prescribed hours - Barnet / No signage.
« Reply #3 on: »
Quote
Am I really expected to be looking out for / memorising every parking sign I drive past 5 minutes before reaching my intended destination?
I'm afraid so !
In London and other large cities, if you park on a single-yellow line and find no signs with the restriction times, it is almost certain that you are in a CPZ, and have missed or ignored the entry signs. All London councils now flood  the streets with CEO patrols 24x7 because it is so lucrative for them. £65 a pop soon adds up to hundreds of thousands of pounds.

 
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Re: 01 - Parked in a restricted street during prescribed hours - Barnet / No signage.
« Reply #4 on: »
Quote from: Incandescent on February 27, 2024, 11:32:07 am
Quote
Am I really expected to be looking out for / memorising every parking sign I drive past 5 minutes before reaching my intended destination?
I'm afraid so !
In London and other large cities, if you park on a single-yellow line and find no signs with the restriction times, it is almost certain that you are in a CPZ, and have missed or ignored the entry signs. All London councils now flood  the streets with CEO patrols 24x7 because it is so lucrative for them. £65 a pop soon adds up to hundreds of thousands of pounds.

Yet the roads are still littered with potholes!

So you suggest I just pay the discount and move on? Is there really zero grounds for successful appeal?

Curious to hear what others think.
« Last Edit: February 27, 2024, 01:43:20 pm by Londoner »
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Re: 01 - Parked in a restricted street during prescribed hours - Barnet / No signage.
« Reply #5 on: »
Wait a bit to see if the others come up with anything.  You have the absolute right in law to submit representations, and then, if rejected, take them to London Tribunals. The downside is you would have to risk the full PCN penalty. The size of the restricted area is larger than guidance.
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Re: 01 - Parked in a restricted street during prescribed hours - Barnet / No signage.
« Reply #6 on: »
Seeing as there were no signs in sight indicating restrictions on the yellow line, I assumed I was good to go.

The photo shows a parking place no more than 10m ahead of you. This is restricted on a Sunday at 14.59. Did you honestly think that drivers would have to pay in these at 14.59 on Sunday while parking was free and unrestricted on an adjacent yellow line?

Anyway, what's done is done.

Do you have any mitigating circumstances e.g. first visit, unknown area, unblemished PCN record etc?
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Re: 01 - Parked in a restricted street during prescribed hours - Barnet / No signage.
« Reply #7 on: »
Quote from: Incandescent on February 27, 2024, 02:16:33 pm
The size of the restricted area is larger than guidance.

Is this grounds for appeal? Would you mind to point me to where I can find this guidance?

Quote from: H C Andersen on February 27, 2024, 05:13:43 pm
Seeing as there were no signs in sight indicating restrictions on the yellow line, I assumed I was good to go.

The photo shows a parking place no more than 10m ahead of you. This is restricted on a Sunday at 14.59. Did you honestly think that drivers would have to pay in these at 14.59 on Sunday while parking was free and unrestricted on an adjacent yellow line?

Anyway, what's done is done.

Do you have any mitigating circumstances e.g. first visit, unknown area, unblemished PCN record etc?

I think in the back of my mind I did know that if there are paid parking bays nearby then the same time restrictions apply on the SYL's, but having to keep all the different types of parking restrictions in mind, I was under the false impression at the time that if there are no CPZ signs at the entry to the road then I'm good to go, hence why I checked 2 different entrances before leaving my car unattended.

Unfortunately I do not have a clean PCN slate with Barnet, although I have never parked on this road before and certainly not at this time of day. I'd imagine Barnet couldn't care less though.
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Re: 01 - Parked in a restricted street during prescribed hours - Barnet / No signage.
« Reply #8 on: »
The size of the CPZ wouldn't win short of adjudication and IMO very, very, unlikely even then.

I'm not aware of any current guidance on this matter, the Secretary of State's Operational Guidance having been withdrawn in Oct '22 and the consolidated Stat Guidance doesn't refer.

As far as I can see, only the TSM refers: https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/782724/traffic-signs-manual-chapter-03.pdf

14.1.13.

But IMO, OP do not risk the discount on this point.
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Re: 01 - Parked in a restricted street during prescribed hours - Barnet / No signage.
« Reply #9 on: »
I think, to condense HCA's post, (I'm sure he won't mind !), the principal of "if it looks too good to be true then it is too good to be true" applies to parking as well as offers of lucrative financial investments .
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Re: 01 - Parked in a restricted street during prescribed hours - Barnet / No signage.
« Reply #10 on: »
Doesn't the below similar case indicate I have a decent chance of winning if I were to take this all the way to tribunal?

http://tinyurl.com/3cmuve78
« Last Edit: February 29, 2024, 12:53:33 am by Londoner »
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Re: 01 - Parked in a restricted street during prescribed hours - Barnet / No signage.
« Reply #11 on: »
Your link doesn't work, but if it's a London Tribunals case, just give us the Case Number.
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Re: 01 - Parked in a restricted street during prescribed hours - Barnet / No signage.
« Reply #12 on: »
Quote from: Incandescent on February 29, 2024, 01:11:15 am
Your link doesn't work, but if it's a London Tribunals case, just give us the Case Number.

I've found several more:

2190189644
2210834196
2210010770
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Re: 01 - Parked in a restricted street during prescribed hours - Barnet / No signage.
« Reply #13 on: »
Two of these cases are about the appellant relying on a sign near the location of parking, that was closer than the CPZ sign.  Your last one is about missing signage. There is no guarantee that you'd win citing some or all of these cases. Your case seems to be that you passed the CPZ entry sign some way back, probably missing it in traffic, and then passed no other signs before parking. Therefore your case would be based on the size of the CPZ being totally against council guidance on CPZs.

Of course, you have the absolute right in law to take them to London Tribunals, but must first go through the process of getting formal reps against a Notice to Owner refused. Are you the owner as per the V5 Registration Certificate for the car.
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Re: 01 - Parked in a restricted street during prescribed hours - Barnet / No signage.
« Reply #14 on: »
Had a quick look through the Traffic Signs Manual and saw this:-

Quote
14.1.13.  It is not essential for a type (a) CPZ to be introduced where parking controls are
required. Each road can be signed in accordance with section 13 without the need to provide
zone entry signs. The advantages of a zone might be:
a) a simplified traffic order.
b) some reduction in environmental intrusion by removal of upright “no waiting” signs and posts
within the zone, but at the expense of providing large zone entry signs.
c) an indication to drivers that all road space is controlled.
d) an indication to drivers of the type of parking available (e.g. pay and display).
However, there are also significant disadvantages. Research has shown that it is unrealistic
to expect drivers to remember the times of operation of the zone when they come to park a
considerable distance after passing a zone entry sign. The area of the zone should therefore
be restricted to, for example, a town centre shopping area. A zone covering a whole town,
or suburb of a conurbation, would be much too large. Drivers are likely also to have difficulty
where zones have complex operational times, e.g. different times on different days of the
week, or where they are adjacent to other zones that have different operational times. In all the
above cases, consideration should be given to replacing the zone with conventional signing as
described in section 13, dividing the zone into several smaller ones or reducing the size of the
zone and signing other roads individually
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  3. 01 - Parked in a restricted street during prescribed hours - Barnet / No signage.