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The first actual no turn to the right was blocked by foliage - this is the sign at the Manor.
So not the one you've circled or referred to or the one referred to by the authority.
I am not trying to be picky for fun. When you make an argument, it should not have the wrinkles yours does. I think you should focus on the multi-penalty being disproportionate. By all means add that you don't disregard traffic signs for fun and that there must have been a reason why - previous GSV show that the tree adjacent to the traffic sign specified by the council is prone to epicormic growth which has the capacity to throw out clusters of dense foliage. -
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Is there a reason why the post is not getting replies?
Because we are all volunteers and some of us are dealing with Judicial Review matters. PM reeived. -
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As regards signage, if you look at GSV, the NRT has been in place for nearly 20 years. Which begs the question: why was it only recently that you started to use the road? What could you put to an adjudicator on this point?
You also seem to have side-stepped this comment in the NOR: '..there are several signs as you approach Northgate, informing motorists of the restriction ahead'
And indeed there is a large one at the j/w Manor House Drive.
Apparently you made reference to using satnav which IMO would likely lead an adjudicator to think: not paying attention to road signs. But given that the restriction has been there for some time and the age of your car, surely satnav did not direct you to take this turn?
Also, which road prohibits the right turn? It certainly isn't Northgate, so why give this as the location? Is giving the location of the camera sufficient? Others will have views.
Would you please catalogue the dates of contravention and corresponding dates of issue of the PCNs and NORs and whether the discount has been re-offered. Let's see what options you have.
Thank you for looking for possible loopholes — it really does help, so I appreciate it.
Perhaps I wasn’t very clear in my earlier post. There are only two relevant signs from the council:
The “No Right Turn” sign at the Manor, which is the one I circled in the image I shared. You can’t actually see the Manor in the image because it’s outside the frame. This is the only “No Right Turn” sign, and it was the one obscured by the foliage.
There is then a second sign at the beginning of the road that you’re not supposed to enter, which is an “Only Buses and Bicycles” sign. That sign also isn’t visible in the CCTV.
My point is that once you’ve committed to the turn because the “No Right Turn” sign is obscured, I don’t think it would be safe or realistic to suddenly stop just before entering the road. At that point you’re already committed to the manoeuvre and need to be looking out for oncoming traffic, pedestrians etc. Stopping unexpectedly could potentially be dangerous.
I’m also struggling financially to pay even the discounted fines, so taking this to the tribunal and losing would put me in a very difficult position. I’m not trying to avoid paying if I’m in the wrong — I would be willing to accept paying the first one if that helps make my case — but I’m finding it really unfair to be penalised multiple times when the main restriction sign was not clearly visible because it was covered by foliage and they took over 2 weeks to send me the first PCN.
I’m just trying to work out whether I have a reasonable case before taking the risk of going to tribunal and potentially ending up with several full penalties. -
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Is there a reason why the post is not getting replies?
Because we are all volunteers and some of us are dealing with Judicial Review matters. PM reeived.
Hello - your help is very much appreciated. I thought I didn't write my post properly as I was seeing posts written after mine getting responses, so I thought I made a mistake I needed to correct. -
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You're putting us under pressure because you're under pressure because you know whether the discounts were re-offered and when they expire. But we don't.
Would you please catalogue the dates of contravention and corresponding dates of issue of the PCNs and NORs and whether the discount has been re-offered. Let's see what options you have.
You drew our attention to the sign/foliage issue at the turn, but now you say that the preceding sign was obscured. Is this still the case? -
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You're putting us under pressure because you're under pressure because you know whether the discounts were re-offered and when they expire. But we don't.
Would you please catalogue the dates of contravention and corresponding dates of issue of the PCNs and NORs and whether the discount has been re-offered. Let's see what options you have.
You drew our attention to the sign/foliage issue at the turn, but now you say that the preceding sign was obscured. Is this still the case?
I took a picture of the road from Google to explain this a bit better (first link).
The black lines and arrows show the direction/trajectory of travel. The sign circled in red is the “No Right Turn” sign, which was obscured by greenery and it is shown (barely) on the ccvt from the council. The sign circled in orange is the blue “Buses and Cycles Only” sign at the entrance to the road but cannot be seen in the videos.
Because I couldn’t see the No Right Turn sign, I was focused on making the turn safely rather than looking further ahead for another restriction sign.
The second link shows the contravention date and when the PCN was issued. All of the rejection notices were issued on 12 August, and they’ve given me two weeks to pay at the 50% discounted rate.
thank you
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“I don’t think it would be safe or realistic to suddenly stop just before entering the road.”
I’m not sure that this argument will work.
What would be your answer be if you were asked what you would do if you saw a cyclist overtaking you on the right just as you were about to turn?
Because they may take the view that if it is safe to stop in those circumstances, then it is safe to stop. -
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This process deals with specified and sometimes defined terms. Details matter.
'All of the rejection notices were issued on 12 August, and they’ve given me two weeks to pay at the 50% discounted rate.'
No they haven't.
You have '14 days from the date of this letter being served to do this [pay at the discount rate]'.
All letters are deemed served on 14th, therefore their offer expires on 28th.
The NORs are a complete mess as regards what they're supposed to include.
Rejection of representations against penalty charge notice
3Where any representations are made under paragraph 1 above but the enforcing authority do not accept that a ground has been established, the notice served under sub-paragraph (7) of the said paragraph 1 (in this Schedule referred to as “the notice of rejection”) must—
(a)state that a charge certificate may be served [they use will be sent] under paragraph 5 below unless before the end of the period of 28 days beginning with the date of service of the notice of rejection[They use 'after 28 days', whatever that's supposed to mean!]—
(i)the penalty charge is paid[They use 'you have 28 days from the date of our notice to do this! FFS]; or
(ii)the person on whom the notice is served appeals to a traffic adjudicator against the penalty charge; and
(b)describe in general terms the form and manner in which such an appeal must be made,
The NORs are grossly defective. You could appeal on the grounds of a collateral challenge e.g. the NORs are so defective that you feel compelled to include this within your appeal which you would ask the adjudicator to consider as a collateral challenge.
Others might comment. -
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Hi, I'm messaging to help bump this post. This happened to me. Firstly as you've found. the appeal process is entirely automated. You should build up as many disputes as you can and go with the strongest. for example in my case their appeals failed to take into account anything id mentioned at all. thats a failure to consider. also look at the offences themselves. check the signage is clear and compliant. look into what constitutes as complaint as if in anyway they have failed to comply you can write all of them off. prepare to prove that this amount would cause financial hardship, as if that is actually the case and all else fails you may be able to pay over time instead of at once.
additionally note the timings of the appeal letters. in my case they sent the notice of rejection letters prematurely which gave me grounds to appeal. I'm currently waiting for my hearing and was very lucky in that i had a member of this forum help take on my case personally for me. i would've never had known to do any of this otherwise.
Thanks!What I find odd is that they completely ignored my point about the foliage covering the “No Right Turn” sign.
As a driver coming up to the road, I’m obviously going to be looking out for oncoming traffic, pedestrians, cyclists etc. I’m not going to be scanning around for another sign further ahead if I can’t see a “No Right Turn” sign on approach.
I just find it strange that they’ve basically dismissed that point given the evidence that they have provided, because surely the visibility of the sign is pretty important here. If the sign is hidden by foliage, how is a driver reasonably supposed to know they need to look for another sign before entering? This is dangerous, as you would have already committed to the turn.
thats because their rejections are almost always automated. they don't actually look at your appeal or if they do. they know most people wont risk going to court. they hold all the power. but court is the only way to actually have someone hear your case. its a broken system in my opinion.
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Thanks!What I find odd is that they completely ignored my point about the foliage covering the “No Right Turn” sign.
There are 2 signs(at least). And you drove past both. Would you be saying to the adjudicator that both were obscured? Is this realistic given that the authority would be bound to introduce this evidence?
IMO, you should lead with objective matters i.e. the cumulative penalty for something you missed or misunderstood.
You then have the procedural errors in their NORs, again these are objective.
Then....
Pl remember, the adjudicator cannot consider purely mitigating circumstances. -
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For what it's worth, Google Maps (at least now) seems to recognise that the turn is prohibited and takes you round the block instead.
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Thank you. I genuinely have no recollection of this sign. I will drive past to take a picture.
Noted about the objective points 👍 I appreciate it -
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Hi!
I have just had the exact same issue - I got 7x 50J in the same place. I have missed the deadlines for appeals as I wasn't in the country. Now each fine is £240 and being sent to debt collection which adds to the cost.
Anyone know how I can freeze this situation and get them to understand that I was not in the country to receive those letters or appeal within 14 days which is an incredibly short timeframe.
Thanks! -
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Hi!
pPlease start your own thread. The rule is on original poster per thread. However, keep looking at this one if it helps you.
I have just had the exact same issue - I got 7x 50J in the same place. I have missed the deadlines for appeals as I wasn't in the country. Now each fine is £240 and being sent to debt collection which adds to the cost.
Anyone know how I can freeze this situation and get them to understand that I was not in the country to receive those letters or appeal within 14 days which is an incredibly short timeframe.
Thanks!
If your case has gone to bailiffs, the only way to revert to the PCN stage is to submit an Out-of-Time Statutory Declaration, one per PCN. -
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