Free Traffic Legal Advice

Just a general enquiry about law on u turns. So sometimes when I'm going home from M1S I take J2 and arrive at this traffic light to either: 1. Make a u turn onto A1N, or 2. Turn right and use the side streets. It's obviously quicker to do 1. However waze never tells me to do that but google map does. So I was trying to see if it is legal on google/reddit, etc. Some say only a u turn prohibition sign would prohibit u turns and otherwise I can do one. Some referred to the law:

From Traffic Signs Manual: Chapter 6

“3.5 Green arrows 3.5.1.  A green arrow signifies that drivers may proceed only in the direction of the arrow (assuming no other green signal is shown) and continue through the junction in that direction.”

From The Traffic Signs Regulations and General Directions 2002 PART I SECTION 5 Regulation 36

“(f)save as provided in sub-paragraphs (g) and (h), the green arrow signal shall indicate that vehicular traffic may, notwithstanding any other indication given by the signals, proceed beyond the stop line only in the direction indicated by the arrow for the purpose of proceeding in that direction through the junction controlled by those signals;

(g)where more than one green arrow is affixed to light signals in accordance with regulation 34(1)(b), vehicular traffic, notwithstanding any other indication given by the signals, may proceed beyond the stop line only in the direction indicated by any one of the green arrows for the purpose of proceeding in that direction through the junction controlled by those signals; and

(h)where the green arrow signal is displayed at the same time as the green signal, vehicular traffic may proceed in the direction indicated by the green arrow in accordance with sub-paragraph (g) or in any other direction in accordance with sub-paragraph (d).”

link to the post

from r/driving

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The location on google street view:

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https://maps.app.goo.gl/bP9KjE2HJDZeDm6P7
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The law seems convincing, however the other side of the junction:

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https://maps.app.goo.gl/EcgieKTgdGhGo2rH9
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has a clear u turn prohibition sign.
Also I can confirm if the right arrow is on green there's no turn allowed from the side roads, i.e. no contradicting flow of traffic to a u turn.
So I wonder why. Advance appreciations for any answers.

I suppose the real question about the law being:
What counts as the 'direction of the arrow'?

making a u turn would be towards the right hand side, so it is allowed?

Both the regs quoted and the Signs Manual are pretty clear. You can proceed only in the direction of the arrow, AND "for the purpose of proceeding in that direction through the junction". A U-turn is manifestly not in that direction.

Both the regs quoted and the Signs Manual are pretty clear. You can proceed only in the direction of the arrow, AND "for the purpose of proceeding in that direction through the junction". A U-turn is manifestly not in that direction.

From memory the TSRGD only qualify traffic movements in this way if a green arrow is being relied upon to go though a red light, i.e. if it's a filter light. If all the lights being displayed are green arrows of some description or another then the bomb-proof defence to any ATS allegation is that no red or amber lights were displayed, so there cannot be any ATS offence. So you don't need to rely on the filter light defence as such.

This leaves the question of the white arrow on a blue sign which, when embedded into a traffic light array, requires a TMO. Contravening that sign would be a civil contravention as well as a criminal offence, so the court or tribunal hearing the case would then have to determine if performing a u-turn is permitted. The obvious argument is that in order to effect a u-turn you have to turn right first, and the sign does not say what you must do after you've turned right. In a criminal court you'd argue that a criminal statute must be narrowly constructed.

In either a civil or criminal context the obvious argument to be made is that if the Highway Authority wants to prohibit a u-turn, they should install no u-turn signs.

In either a civil or criminal context the obvious argument to be made is that if the Highway Authority wants to prohibit a u-turn, they should install no u-turn signs.

I think the design of the junction that I have mentioned corresponds to this idea.
https://maps.app.goo.gl/8687jnrqMkPnkJts7
The phases of the green signals are:
1. A1N and the crossing of A1S after junction
2. A1S and crossing of A1N before junction
3. Side roads both ways
4. maybe another pedestrian phase
What I would like to say is that they have put a no u turn sign only on the A1N approaching the junction, in my opinion this prevents contradiction between u turn vehicles and the crossing in phase 1.
On the A1S carriageway there's no contradicting flow to the u turn so they have not put one on.
It might still be illegal to u turn here but I don't think that the designer of the junction have been thinking of that.

A more general question being, for a split phase signal there usually (or most of the time) is a arrow signal, to indicate protected right turn, I don't think any traffic would be blocked by doing a u turn there except for simultaneous left turns or pedestrian, but surely they could just put up a no u turn sign, and otherwise how are they going to permit u turn at those junctions?

Another weird example is:
https://maps.app.goo.gl/qW2ShNZeugeBYaSu6
There's no blue arrow signs but there is a arrow signal without no u turn sign. However there is simultaneous left turn traffic so they should have banned u turn actually, or just need to yield to the left turn traffic? Also it is not really making sense if the red light is just round and I have to find out I cannot do a u turn there only after it turns into green arrow, if the law implies no u turn at arrow signals.

I will probably avoid u turning at those arrow lights in the future, just trying to find out if it is allowed and observe some discussion from the professionals.

You won't get a council/TFL PCN by CCTV for doing a u-turn where there's just a green arrow as it has no regulatory force.

As CP says, it's common sense depending on traffic and the layout. These things tend to evolve piecemeal - they'll put in a no u-turn if the junction becomes hazardous owing to u-turning drivers, or consider changing something elsewhere to remove the reason why people are doing it there.