Author Topic: Have I been caught?  (Read 9196 times)

0 Members and 0 Guests are viewing this topic.

Hroogar

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 31
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
Re: Have I been caught?
« Reply #150 on: January 19, 2025, 01:55:03 pm »
there have been some spurious articles claiming this but are not genuine.
I was told by a muppet "teacher" at a SAC that there's "no such thing anymore" and went on to name a police force that doesn't exist.
So does it depend on the day, the Police Force and how the Officer is feeling?

I am guessing yes as that is the only explanation for my 2014 idiotic 108mph 'test' which ended up not being laid before the courts.

aardvark

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 5
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
Re: Have I been caught?
« Reply #151 on: January 19, 2025, 01:59:40 pm »
there have been some spurious articles claiming this but are not genuine.
I was told by a muppet "teacher" at a SAC that there's "no such thing anymore" and went on to name a police force that doesn't exist.

Haha, you were right the first time with "muppet".  ;)

The "10% + 2" thing has only ever been a guideline, which was recommended by the Association of Chief Police Officers (now replaced by the National Police Chiefs' Council).

Like Southpaw says, it has never had any force in law. It is merely a guideline that most police forces abide by.

In law, breaking the speed limit is an "absolute" offence: you can technically be breaking the law just by going 1mph above the limit. The guideline is applied out of pragmatic considerations. But technically doing 31mph in a 30mph can be prosecuted and it wouldn't be a defence to say "But I was doing less than 10% plus 2mph over the limit."

So that will be what your muppet was going on about, although he wasn't quite correct in the way that he said it.
Like Like x 1 View List

mickR

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 594
  • Karma: +12/-1
    • View Profile
Re: Have I been caught?
« Reply #152 on: January 19, 2025, 02:34:20 pm »
the article is correct, it is true that speedometer must over read in order to Never under read.
However I doubt most new vehicles would read 50 when doing 40. I always assume mine to over read by 2-3 mph over @70mph.
Like Like x 1 View List

andy_foster

  • Global Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 872
  • Karma: +15/-19
  • Location: Reading
    • View Profile
Re: Have I been caught?
« Reply #153 on: January 19, 2025, 03:33:30 pm »
In law, breaking the speed limit is an "absolute" offence

Is that your final answer?
I am responsible for the accuracy of the information I post, not your ability to comprehend it.

mickR

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 594
  • Karma: +12/-1
    • View Profile
Re: Have I been caught?
« Reply #154 on: January 19, 2025, 05:30:18 pm »
So that will be what your muppet was going on about, although he wasn't quite correct in the way that he said it.
no it wasn't, he actually said they WERE guidelines but were now disregarded by every police force I'm the country. this was just one example of a couple of hours of bull sh!t the bloke came out with to justify his fee.

aardvark

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 5
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
Re: Have I been caught?
« Reply #155 on: January 19, 2025, 06:06:03 pm »
Quote from: mickR
no it wasn't, he actually said they WERE guidelines but were now disregarded by every police force I'm the country. this was just one example of a couple of hours of bull sh!t the bloke came out with to justify his fee.

He’s talking out of his arse. 😂

The NPCC replaced ACPO but they have never revoked those guidelines as far as I’m aware.

And here’s the current guidance for the Met (by way of example): https://www.met.police.uk/foi-ai/metropolitan-police/d/march-2022/current-guidance-relating-to-speed-cameras/

Their threshold used to be marginally above the ACPO guideline (was 10%+3, now it’s 10%+2).

Police forces don’t have to follow these guidelines, but they never did have to.

Did you complain about the false information that he was putting out? I think I would.
« Last Edit: January 19, 2025, 06:24:36 pm by aardvark »

mickR

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 594
  • Karma: +12/-1
    • View Profile
Re: Have I been caught?
« Reply #156 on: January 19, 2025, 08:31:13 pm »
I'm sure most members are fully aware of the guideline threshold.

A few of us knew he was chatting bullish!t some obviously believed every word he said lol.
I just found it funny.

BertB

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 106
  • Karma: +2/-0
    • View Profile
Re: Have I been caught?
« Reply #157 on: January 21, 2025, 11:21:47 am »
I think the context in which the original story was told by Mick has been lost here. He'll consider himself re-educated all the same though  ;D

mickR

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 594
  • Karma: +12/-1
    • View Profile
Re: Have I been caught?
« Reply #158 on: January 21, 2025, 01:46:52 pm »
I consider myself to be "re educated" in something or other almost every day 😅

Notme

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 2
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
12 points
« Reply #159 on: January 23, 2025, 11:40:23 am »
Posting on behalf of my daughter (honestly :)! ). She's asked me to help her get her head around this - she's worried!
This is slightly hypothetical, but she's panicking.
She already has 9 points - all from NIPs for speeding.
She normally uses the speed limiter on her car since the last time that she got points but yesterday forgot and went past a speed camera van, where she realises she was speeding. (The disadvantage of speed limiters is that it lulls you into a false sense of security if you forget to put it on).
In terms of the offence, if the camera was operational at that moment, it seems an open and shut case.

The questions are more about a driving ban.
I have read that it's a six month ban for speeding except in exceptional circumstances.
Her circumstances are that she lives in a market town around 30 minutes drive from where she works.
There is no alternative transport, so she would certainly lose her job.
She is a single person, owns her own house with a mortgage and would certainly default on the mortgage and most likely lose her house.
Finding alternative employment in her area of experience, accessible without public transport would be very difficult. Most of the few jobs locally in her sector are out of town and inaccessible without public transport and involve unsocial hours. Lower paid jobs in other sectors such as hospitality that are available in her area wouldn't cover her mortgage and council tax.
Her job is a valuable one caring for young people with severe special needs.

So, to the questions:
1. If she gets the letter asking who is the driver, she will know that this is eventually going to go to court. What, in practice, is the normal time scale between receiving the letter, and a court date?
2. Based on any other people's experience, how likely is it that she could avoid or get a reduced ban based on the above info
3. She would need to get a lawyer. She doesnt live near a big city - is that likely to be a problem? and how on earth do you choose a good one?
4. Anyone know a rough ball park figure of what a lawyer will cost?
5. Any other helpful thoughts

I hope all these questions are ok. I've had a read through the forum and gleaned some info but wanted to put the specific circumstances on here for people's thoughts. Thank in advance

NewJudge

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 516
  • Karma: +22/-0
    • View Profile
Re: Have I been caught?
« Reply #160 on: January 23, 2025, 07:31:57 pm »
1. She will have to attend court as she will face disqualification. The police have six months from the offence date to bring proceedings and in many areas they take all of that.

2. She must convince the court that she or others will face "exceptional hardship" if she is banned. This is the guidance for Magistrates when they consider such an argument:

When considering whether there are grounds to reduce or avoid a totting up disqualification the court should have regard to the following:

It is for the offender to prove to the civil standard of proof that such grounds exist. Other than very exceptionally, this will require evidence from the offender, and where such evidence is given, it must be sworn.

Where it is asserted that hardship would be caused, the court must be satisfied that it is not merely inconvenience, or hardship, but exceptional hardship for which the court must have evidence.

Almost every disqualification entails hardship for the person disqualified and their immediate family. This is part of the deterrent objective of the provisions combined with the preventative effect of the order not to drive.

If a motorist continues to offend after becoming aware of the risk to their licence of further penalty points, the court can take this circumstance into account.

Courts should be cautious before accepting assertions of exceptional hardship without evidence that alternatives (including alternative means of transport) for avoiding exceptional hardship are not viable.

Loss of employment will be an inevitable consequence of a driving ban for many people. Evidence that loss of employment would follow from disqualification is not in itself sufficient to demonstrate exceptional hardship; whether or not it does will depend on the circumstances of the offender and the consequences of that loss of employment on the offender and/or others

You will note that losing one's job is not usually by itself considered sufficient.


3. She doesn't need a lawyer. She can make the argument herself.

4. I have heard of people who have been quoted up to £3,000 to deal with an EH argument.

5. If she decides to put forward an EH case she will do best to provide evidence for all the matters she says will cause her hardship and also show that she has explored all possible alternatives which do not involve her driving and why they are impossible/impractical or whatever.
« Last Edit: January 23, 2025, 07:35:03 pm by NewJudge »

Notme

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 2
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
Re: Have I been caught?
« Reply #161 on: January 24, 2025, 05:47:49 pm »
Many thanks for the reply.
Although she CAN make the argument herself, do you think having a lawyer will
a) carry more wait with the magistrates
b) just help with HOW to make the arguments

NewJudge

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 516
  • Karma: +22/-0
    • View Profile
Re: Have I been caught?
« Reply #162 on: January 25, 2025, 01:18:38 pm »
Quote
a)...carry more wait with the magistrates

There are two schools of thought with this. One says that the court will be more convinced if the circumstances are related by the defendant personally with all the errors and emotions that might involve. If she wants to do this and is not too confident she can draft it (you can put it on here for critique) and either read it to the court or ask the Magistrates to read it themselves. She will, however, be asked to provide her evidence on oath and will undoubtedly be questioned by the Magistrates.

The other view is that  a lawyer will be more eloquent and less likely to overlook any important points or involve anything irrelevant. But of course that problem can be overcome by drafting the argument as I suggested.

In either event I believe the court will be more interested in the content rather than style.

Quote
b)...just help with HOW to make the arguments

That is certainly an advantage that cannot be overlooked. It is important if a lawyer is engaged to ensure a motoring specialist is chosen. We have seen reports on here of  advice allegedly given by some lawyers and it is obvious that they clearly do not specialise (or, on some occasions even have much of a clue) in motoring matters.

It’s my view that a decent argument will stand up whoever presents it. You can get views and advice on here with the content. If she does reach this stage it would be a good idea to raise a thread in the "Speeding and other criminal offences" section. It might be best for her to post herself so as to avoid anything being "lost in the translation" (or transmission).
« Last Edit: January 25, 2025, 01:23:14 pm by NewJudge »