3. FPN Hillingdon Council for Engine Idle
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ghostivv

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FPN Hillingdon Council for Engine Idle
« on: April 19, 2024, 02:14:33 pm »
Not sure if this is the right place to post this but one of my friend was handed a FPN for Engine Idle. Tried few searches but came up with none so posting here to see for an advice. This is the first time I am aware of getting fine for just waiting inside car with engine on. No information on how to appeal so looks like either pay or court process?

Thanks.
« Last Edit: April 19, 2024, 02:18:05 pm by ghostivv »
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Incandescent

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Re: FPN Hillingdon Council for Engine Idle
« Reply #1 on: April 19, 2024, 07:47:07 pm »
Not sure on this one. You could try PMing the administrator, cp8759  The FPN comes under criminal law, not civil.
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cp8759

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Re: FPN Hillingdon Council for Engine Idle
« Reply #2 on: April 22, 2024, 07:06:30 pm »
Well this is a criminal matter so I've moved it to where there are people with expertise on criminal law and procedure.

The first issue to establish is whether your friend identified himself to the officer, if he was merely handed a ticket then the council would have no evidence of who the driver actually was (and obviously in a criminal case the prosecution bears the burden of proving each element of the offence beyond reasonable doubt).

I also know as a fact that many council prosecutions are brought in the hope that they won't be defended and if a defendant actually turns up to court, they just drop it. I know this because a local authority solicitor I met in an east London magistrates court openly admitted this to me.
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I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor nor a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193.

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cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order
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The Rookie

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Re: FPN Hillingdon Council for Engine Idle
« Reply #3 on: April 22, 2024, 09:27:55 pm »
The top line of the FPN sees, to be to a named person?

There can still be defences to such cases, but often that is a matter of fact and a full (truthful) description of events leading up to the alleged offence, also what may or may not have been admitted at the time (fail to mention now etc.)
Example, defrosting a car on a cold morning may require a period of idling to ensure the car is safe to drive, obviously not applicable here which is why I deliberately used that as an example.
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Lodesman

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Re: FPN Hillingdon Council for Engine Idle
« Reply #4 on: April 23, 2024, 09:11:23 pm »
I notice that the offence covered a period of two minutes.
Are they being serious ?
Surely we can all think of valid reasons for an engine to be in motion for that short period of time.
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sparxy

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Re: FPN Hillingdon Council for Engine Idle
« Reply #5 on: April 23, 2024, 09:34:43 pm »
The PSPO for Hillingdon appears to be here: https://www.hillingdon.gov.uk/media/12164/PSPO-Parks-and-Public-Places-2023/pdf/i8PSPO_Parks_and_Public_Places_final_2023_1__2.pdf

and section e

Quote
e) A person commits an offence if without reasonable excuse, they leave a parked or
stationary vehicle engine running on any part of the Public Highway.

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Lodesman

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Re: FPN Hillingdon Council for Engine Idle
« Reply #6 on: April 23, 2024, 10:01:21 pm »
Did he “leave” the car with the engine running?

I suppose the definition of “leave” is important.

The OP stated that the driver was in the car at the time so he obviously did not “leave” (go away), whether he “did leave” the engine running for two minutes without good reason is another matter. He may have had “good reason” to do so.
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Southpaw82

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Re: FPN Hillingdon Council for Engine Idle
« Reply #7 on: April 23, 2024, 10:29:58 pm »
Seems like the OP needs to say why the engine was idling.
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666

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Re: FPN Hillingdon Council for Engine Idle
« Reply #8 on: April 24, 2024, 06:19:22 am »
The PSPO seems to be wholly redundant, since there are already two offences under the C & U Regs.

Para (e) seems a poor attempt to paraphrase reg 107, which prohibits leaving the vehicle with the engine running. whereas reg 98 covers the OP's situation, i.e. still sitting in the car.
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The Rookie

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Re: FPN Hillingdon Council for Engine Idle
« Reply #9 on: April 24, 2024, 06:47:56 am »
Quote from: Lodesman on April 23, 2024, 09:11:23 pm
I notice that the offence covered a period of two minutes.
Are they being serious ?
Surely we can all think of valid reasons for an engine to be in motion for that short period of time.
We can, but whether any apply or not is a different question, which is why the example I picked was one that couldn’t apply as I don’t want to ‘lead the witness’.
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cp8759

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Re: FPN Hillingdon Council for Engine Idle
« Reply #10 on: April 24, 2024, 10:18:41 am »
@ghostivv are you still with us?
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I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor nor a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order

ghostivv

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Re: FPN Hillingdon Council for Engine Idle
« Reply #11 on: April 26, 2024, 07:42:24 pm »
Thanks for the replies. The FPN is paid now as too much hassle with the court proceedings.

The driver was waiting for someone and yes he did left the engine running out of habit as he's a cab driver. We are well aware of council enforcements on littering etc but this was the first time on engine idle which came as a big surprise considering it seems to be a kind of norm. I have the issue with the way the FPN was handed. May be wrong interpretation on my part but is it not the law that the FPN to be issued ONLY if ignored the order from enforcement officer. So in this case, the officers should first ask the driver to stop the engine and if ignored, then issue the fine. 

Quote
(1)A person issued with a community protection notice may appeal to a magistrates' court against the notice on any of the following grounds.

1That the conduct specified in the community protection notice—

(a)did not take place,

(b)has not had a detrimental effect on the quality of life of those in the locality,

(c)has not been of a persistent or continuing nature,

(d)is not unreasonable, or

(e)is conduct that the person cannot reasonably be expected to control or affect.
 

Don't know the reasonable time to leave engine idle.

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andy_foster

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Re: FPN Hillingdon Council for Engine Idle
« Reply #12 on: April 26, 2024, 08:19:39 pm »
Whether or not the correct procedure was followed is irrelevant as you have paid the FPN anyway.
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cp8759

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Re: FPN Hillingdon Council for Engine Idle
« Reply #13 on: April 27, 2024, 10:00:16 am »
As Andy says it's now academic, but I very much doubt that an FPN is a "community protection notice" for the purposes of the legislation.
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I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor nor a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order
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Southpaw82

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Re: FPN Hillingdon Council for Engine Idle
« Reply #14 on: April 27, 2024, 12:48:17 pm »
Quote from: cp8759 on April 27, 2024, 10:00:16 am
As Andy says it's now academic, but I very much doubt that an FPN is a "community protection notice" for the purposes of the legislation.

Likewise.
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