Author Topic: Totting up or potential ban?  (Read 1124 times)

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tonys

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Re: Totting up or potential ban?
« Reply #15 on: September 12, 2023, 07:27:20 am »
So let's forget about the offence in 2021 except in that it's left you with three points.

For the incident on 17th August 2023, you received a COFP for driving "without reasonable consideration to other users".

Have you now received a second COFP for the same date, time and place but alleging driving "without due care and attention" also citing Section 3 RTA 1988?

Is that correct? If so then that sounds like a duplication, as the two are different elements of the same offence.

The Rookie

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Re: Totting up or potential ban?
« Reply #16 on: September 12, 2023, 12:07:25 pm »
As posted on 'the other site'.

So to be clear, you have 2 COFP arising from the same incident?

This simply shouldn't happen, for a start they are both the same offence contrary to S3 RTA 1988 ( https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1988/52/section/3 ) so effectively they are trying to punish you twice for one 'crime', secondly if two offences are committed at the same time they shouldn't issue a COFP at all (to their guidance) and thirdly if they were different offences (they aren't) committed at the same time then in court you only get one set of points (for the worst offence) so would have to be foolish to accept a COFP.

I see three options
1/ Write back to the Police enclosing copies of both and politely asking what the F they are playing at, they may even drop both cases out of 'embarrassment' (for the want of a better single word).
2/ Accept one, that then absolves you of prosecution for the other and if they did take it to court you could have a little fun showing up their incompetence.
3/ Accept neither (noting you don't have to actively decline, you can ignore them as it says) and wait to be taken to court, you'll only get one lot of points (but may be more than 3) if you lose, and it will cost quite a bit more (again, only if you lose). Chance of a successful defence is hard to quantify.
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unknowndriver

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Re: Totting up or potential ban?
« Reply #17 on: September 12, 2023, 11:07:18 pm »
So let's forget about the offence in 2021 except in that it's left you with three points.

For the incident on 17th August 2023, you received a COFP for driving "without reasonable consideration to other users".

Have you now received a second COFP for the same date, time and place but alleging driving "without due care and attention" also citing Section 3 RTA 1988?

Is that correct? If so then that sounds like a duplication, as the two are different elements of the same offence.

Yes i have received a second COFP for the same date, time and place but charge is driving without sue care and attention with it citing section 3 RTA 1988.

Please find the letters in this link

https://imgur.com/a/hTkZ3sI

Can see the dates and description of charge is different

unknowndriver

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Re: Totting up or potential ban?
« Reply #18 on: September 12, 2023, 11:11:17 pm »
As posted on 'the other site'.

So to be clear, you have 2 COFP arising from the same incident?

This simply shouldn't happen, for a start they are both the same offence contrary to S3 RTA 1988 ( https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1988/52/section/3 ) so effectively they are trying to punish you twice for one 'crime', secondly if two offences are committed at the same time they shouldn't issue a COFP at all (to their guidance) and thirdly if they were different offences (they aren't) committed at the same time then in court you only get one set of points (for the worst offence) so would have to be foolish to accept a COFP.

I see three options
1/ Write back to the Police enclosing copies of both and politely asking what the F they are playing at, they may even drop both cases out of 'embarrassment' (for the want of a better single word).
2/ Accept one, that then absolves you of prosecution for the other and if they did take it to court you could have a little fun showing up their incompetence.
3/ Accept neither (noting you don't have to actively decline, you can ignore them as it says) and wait to be taken to court, you'll only get one lot of points (but may be more than 3) if you lose, and it will cost quite a bit more (again, only if you lose). Chance of a successful defence is hard to quantify.

I have responded to you on the other site

Would writing work or a phonecall work? If the writing is better, how am i to word this?
Cold they have dropped the first charge? but how could that work without being informed

So if i accept the first one, driving without consideration for others, i ignore the charge of driving without due care?

In any of those scenarios, which has as higher chance of success? or are they all equal to each other?

guest46

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Re: Totting up or potential ban?
« Reply #19 on: September 13, 2023, 08:14:19 am »
WRITE!! This is closing in on court so written records matter! Never assume what is said in a phone call (which could be only with as call handler) has any real basis.

The options above aren't about the chances of success, they're about your attitude to risk.

1. Is fairly benign and there's no real risk in asking for clarity (provided you act quickly, politely etc)
2. Is a 'confession' of guilt for 1/2 the charges soa 50/50 option
3. Is the fight it to the wire option with costs etc hanging over you if you lose

Me? I'd get a letter away NOW, copy kept with proof of posting (option 1.) as there's no real downside if the timing works.

unknowndriver

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Re: Totting up or potential ban?
« Reply #20 on: September 13, 2023, 06:09:46 pm »
WRITE!! This is closing in on court so written records matter! Never assume what is said in a phone call (which could be only with as call handler) has any real basis.

The options above aren't about the chances of success, they're about your attitude to risk.

1. Is fairly benign and there's no real risk in asking for clarity (provided you act quickly, politely etc)
2. Is a 'confession' of guilt for 1/2 the charges soa 50/50 option
3. Is the fight it to the wire option with costs etc hanging over you if you lose

Me? I'd get a letter away NOW, copy kept with proof of posting (option 1.) as there's no real downside if the timing works.

For option 1, could i please get some help with the wording as i am not sure what i can ask/say it in a way that they may drop this or provide a reason for the charges relating to the same driving category

If the charges are addressed to me after being stopped and giving my details, wouldnt that somewhat count as a 'confession'?

I would like to avoid the last option if the costs will increase by a lot more than now

guest46

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Re: Totting up or potential ban?
« Reply #21 on: September 14, 2023, 07:53:11 am »
The content for option one is in The Rookie's post above! Just 'fluff' it a bit. You are asking for clarity.

Being charged isn't a confession - unless you did....AFTER being charged? Did you?

Provided you engage in the correspondence before any set time limits, option 3 won't kick in.

The Rookie

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Re: Totting up or potential ban?
« Reply #22 on: September 14, 2023, 01:05:48 pm »
For option 1, could i please get some help with the wording as i am not sure what i can ask/say
I would suggest NOT coming over all 'barrack room lawyer' but instead coming over 'bemused/confused'.

Something along the lines of

Dear Sir/Madam,
On DD/MM/YY I received a COFP (REF XXXXX) for driving without due consideration relating to an incident on DD/MM/YY.

While still considering whether to accept this, on DD/MM/YY I received a second COFP (REF XXXXX) for careless driving arising from the exact same incident.

My understanding is that this must be an error as I shouldn't be being sent to COFP for what is one alleged offence with one set of facts.  Can you please clarify why I have been sent to COFPs as this is obviously very confusing and upsetting.

Yours Faithfully
UKD

Obviously insert nos and dates...
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guest111

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Re: Totting up or potential ban?
« Reply #23 on: September 14, 2023, 02:22:48 pm »
For option 1, could i please get some help with the wording as i am not sure what i can ask/say
I would suggest NOT coming over all 'barrack room lawyer' but instead coming over 'bemused/confused'.

Something along the lines of

Dear Sir/Madam,
On DD/MM/YY I received a COFP (REF XXXXX) for driving without due consideration relating to an incident on DD/MM/YY.

While still considering whether to accept this, on DD/MM/YY I received a second COFP (REF XXXXX) for careless driving arising from the exact same incident.

My understanding is that this must be an error as I shouldn't be being sent two COFP for what is one alleged offence with one set of facts.  Can you please clarify why I have been sent two COFPs as this is obviously very confusing and upsetting.

Yours Faithfully
UKD

Obviously insert nos and dates...

Sorry to be picky but the salient point here is that the OP has received two COFPs, so the word "two" really needs to be correct.  I bolded the two errors.  It's a bit confusing otherwise.
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The Rookie

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Re: Totting up or potential ban?
« Reply #24 on: September 14, 2023, 03:19:43 pm »
Indeed, thanks for that.
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unknowndriver

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Re: Totting up or potential ban?
« Reply #25 on: September 16, 2023, 01:24:18 pm »
I have posted the letter yesterday with the help of what to write, also gave copies of both COFP. I have proof of postage.

I assume that in about a weeks time the 28 days for the first COFP ( dated 25th August) will come to the end of it, will i get a response back about my letter before then or should i call up and explain so they can extend the 28 days by a few days more?