Author Topic: Totting up or potential ban?  (Read 1124 times)

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unknowndriver

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Totting up or potential ban?
« on: August 20, 2023, 08:10:03 pm »
Hello all,

Will explain as best as i can. Im asking for advice to see what could i end up with potentially.

To also further let you know, i have done a driver improvement course in the summer of 2021 but another offense later down the year of 2021 left me with 3 points on license for driving without due care and attention.

On Thursday 17/08, i was driving to pick up a family member who was having some health problem from their shift at work. I wasnt manically driving, was trying to get to them as soon as i could. The road i was going down has a normal traffic lane and a bus lane to the left of the traffic lane. There is a major roundabout towards end of road i was driving down and i have to go straight across the roundabout. As i was some far back of the road i saw a few cars which were slowing down, i thought maybe queue was building up for whatever reason, which does happen for those needing to get to the A12. I saw a car leave the queue and use the bus lane to get out. As i got more closer to the back of few cars, i read the bus time sign and saw that it was out of hours, so just like the car that had used it, i decided to use it so i wasnt caught up. As i got in to the bus lane and tried picking up speed, since the road bends slightly, as im near ending the bus lane, i see the car at the front of the queue has no other cars in front of it, because the road bends, my vision is a bit obscured from seeing the front right side of that car, as ive gone past 3/4 of that car, ive realised that at the pedestrian refuge island, there is a mother and her child almost halfway across the car that has stopped, realising this ive tried to slow down as quick as i can but i had already gone a lot past them and only managed to completely slow down after.

Unfortunately, the car behind the car that had stopped for the parent and child, was an undercover ford estate. They have immediately turned the sirens and lights on and cut me off from the beginning after i was stationary. The officer from the passenger side jumped out to me and said i almost hit the child and the parent, i apologised to the officer, i tried getting some words in but he was furious and tried opening my door also. The driver of the car that had stopped jumped out also and was asking me what i was doing etc and in front of the officer said to me, 'Youre lucky they pulled you over otherwise i was gonna chase you down, drag you out and punch you up'. I did not say anything to make matters worse and was told by the officer to pull into the KFC parking lot next to the roundabout.

When we got there, i was asked for my license and i explained i didnt have it and the same officer said to me, 'Well you better get someone to effing bring it down here'.  I said to him i may have a picture on my phone and showed him that, i repeatedly apologised about the situation, understanding what i had done however i was also trying to explain that because of the bend i was unable to even see the the head of the parent, i was confused as to why the driver stopped at the pedestrian island. The parent and her child came to get their details taken and the driver of the car who stopped was also there to be as a witness. I was also told me using the bus lane is a crime and counts as undertaking.

The officer had already started the ticketing process and was saying to me about the manner of my driving and i should be looking at a ban. The officer that was driving the undercover car approached me after taking the details from others, and said to me that i should deserve to get my license taken away, what i did could have killed the child etc. I stayed quiet as i was already shaken up from what happened and because of the aggressive threat i got from the other driver. The officer was at times close to my face when i was trying to explain and would shut me down.

I was told im being out down for a speeding offence, driving without due car and attention ( which i already have 3 points for since boxing day 2021) and driving without considerable reason to other road users. Some minutes after i was told the speeding offence is being dropped but the other two remain. After about 25-30minutes, i was told i would receive something in the post within 6 months. I forgot to ask for any information such as a ref number. I was further told that the incident was recorded on the bodycam, so if i decide to contest this later, that will be used and there could be 5-6 witnesses against me.

I understand i have not got anything solid to give here for a specific answer, however what i could i be looking at?
I work at a job which requires driving around and i have family members who do depend on me due to their health conditions. I have already been driving extra careful since i received the 3 points which i also i think have a year and a half left before they finish, so this is more stress.


Could i be looking at a ban due to the comments made by the officer of how my driving nearly killed a child?
Would they merge the two offenses as they are linked together in this case?
If it does end up going to court when i receive the charges back, would i need a solicitor for this?

I am attaching the map link below to help

https://goo.gl/maps/R5FaXnSvSCQThz9J8

Thanks for the lengthy read and for any answers
« Last Edit: August 21, 2023, 12:55:41 am by cp8759 »

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The Rookie

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Re: Totting up or potential ban?
« Reply #1 on: August 21, 2023, 04:25:24 pm »
Until we know what if/you're charged with then it's impossible to say - what could happen are
1/ Nothing more, they think the bollocking was enough
2/ You could get offered an awareness ('what's driving us') course
3/ You could get a 'summons' (Single Justice Procedure Notice now) for careless driving (so 3-9 points so at the very top end you risk a totting ban).
4/ Or for dangerous driving which is a mandatory 1 year disqualification.

While vaguely interesting there is really no value in playing 'what ifs' until the Police make the next move (or not).

Was the bus lane live at the time or just a normal lane as it has specific hours of operation.

A pedestrian crossing there doesn't have priority and should have been giving way to traffic so while you still need to drive with due care and attention the officers ire seems a slightly misdirected.
There are motorists who have been scammed and those who are yet to be scammed!
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unknowndriver

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Re: Totting up or potential ban?
« Reply #2 on: August 21, 2023, 08:22:07 pm »
Thank for your reply, i understand that until i dont receive anything from the police, its difficult to give advice without it, just wondered if anyone has been in this or a similar situation.

In response to your answers:

1/ Would the officers notes influence the outcome of this?

2/ Is the Whats driving us course different from the Driver improvement course? I know i have done  course in the summer of 2021 for driving without due care, just trying to understand if another course would be given despite having done one?

3/ If i do receive a summons, do the officers and other witnesses usually attend? Could i do some sort of plea bargain at that stage?

4/ Will an exceptional hardship help in this stage if it gets there? has it helped anyone?

The bus lane was out of hours, it ended at 7pm and i entered it around 7:15-7:20pm, i cant be sure of the exact time however, i only used it as i had seen it was out of hours and i was near to the end of the bus lane.

I agree with that the pedestrian crossing doesnt have priority, especially on a busy road as that coming up to a major roundabout, what i dont understand is why the officer didnt question the driver who did stop.

Could i use this as a defence if needed later on, that the driver stopped where he didnt need to? i understand my part in what ive done however i did what i have seen many do, except in this case i didnt expect the unexpected.

Also, should i write a police report or complaint about the officer who allowed the other driver to pretty much threaten me with violence? Could this impact the case against me in anyway?

Irksome

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Re: Totting up or potential ban?
« Reply #3 on: August 21, 2023, 10:21:19 pm »
1) Prabably
2) I believe you are using two names for the same thing.
3) depends what you do with the SJPN, if that is what you receive. Too early to tell if this is going anywhere near a court, let alone an in person trial.
4) depends on what you are charged with / found guilty of.

Sounds very much like you are panicking about this and thinking of ways to hit back - you have no options at this point other than to wait and see what you get, if anything.

The Rookie

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Re: Totting up or potential ban?
« Reply #4 on: August 22, 2023, 08:32:13 am »
1/ Yes, the Traffic Offence Report will contain a description and any recommendation, it's all the back office have to go on when deciding on which route to take
2/ Same course, 'whats driving us' is the official name but it is an improvement course, so no, you won't (shouldn't) be offered another
3/ If you plead guilty you would normally be sentenced on the facts as stated in the charge, you can enter a 'Newton plea' where you plead guilty but contest some of the facts where a witness will usually attend if it's required, the court will hear evidence from both sides and decide what facts they will use for sentencing, not sure what sort of plea bargain (noting there is no formal procedure for this in the UK unlike the US) you can entre, but Careless and Dangerous driving are statutory alternatives so if charged with one but te facts indicate the other is more appropriate the court will find and sentence accordingly.
4/ Exceptional hardship ONLY applies to totting bans, and yes of course you can submit such a plea if you do tot, given we have no knowledge of your basis for it then it's hard to know the chances of success.

If the bus lane was out of hours, then as long as you weren't speeding and could stop in the distance reasonably required then it's hard to see how your driving fell below that of a careful and competent driver (the definition for careless) let alone 'far below' (dangerous).
There are motorists who have been scammed and those who are yet to be scammed!

unknowndriver

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Re: Totting up or potential ban?
« Reply #5 on: September 08, 2023, 09:03:39 pm »
Hi all, coming back to this.

I received a letter last Friday 1st September, been busy with work and forgot to post here for advice. The date on the actual letter is 25th August.

With what im being charged, which in one sense is a lot better than being charged with driving without due care as i have 3 points for it already, is there any potential defence for this? Is it uncommon for me to call the number provided and maybe ask them for help with the whole someone stopping at a pedestrian refuge when not needing to? Or do i take this as it is?

Any help will be appreciated.

666

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Re: Totting up or potential ban?
« Reply #6 on: September 09, 2023, 07:36:56 am »
Hi all, coming back to this.

I received a letter last Friday 1st September, been busy with work and forgot to post here for advice. The date on the actual letter is 25th August.

With what im being charged, which in one sense is a lot better than being charged with driving without due care as i have 3 points for it already, is there any potential defence for this? Is it uncommon for me to call the number provided and maybe ask them for help with the whole someone stopping at a pedestrian refuge when not needing to? Or do i take this as it is?

Any help will be appreciated.
Give us a clue. What are you being charged with?

guest46

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Re: Totting up or potential ban?
« Reply #7 on: September 09, 2023, 09:31:55 am »
As above, without knowing the charge(s), no-one can say!

It reads like 'dismal' driving but that's not an offence so DWDC seems most likely - the points for that will proably depend on the court's perception of the seriousness and you'll likely be at the upper end so 5-6 points  most likely IMO (without knowing the charges....)

That would take you to 8/9 so no ban.
But - give us the details! >:(

slapdash

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Re: Totting up or potential ban?
« Reply #8 on: September 09, 2023, 03:19:22 pm »
According to the pdf posted it's a COFP for driving without reasonable consideration.

666

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Re: Totting up or potential ban?
« Reply #9 on: September 09, 2023, 04:45:50 pm »
According to the pdf posted it's a COFP for driving without reasonable consideration.
Which is the same offence as careless driving, and the same range of penalties applies.

"If a person drives a mechanically propelled vehicle on a road or other public place without due care and attention, or without reasonable consideration for other persons using the road or place, he is guilty of an offence." [Road Traffic Act 1988, s3}

You have the option of accepting the fixed penalty (100 and three points), or defending the charge in court. In the absence of a convincing defence, that will cost you a great deal more (probably 1,000-ish) and possibly more than three points.


unknowndriver

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Re: Totting up or potential ban?
« Reply #10 on: September 11, 2023, 08:13:43 pm »
I have come home today to find another COFP for driving without due care and attention and can be dealt with 3 points.

So i have been dealt with the two charges the officer stated that he would be writing me up for. I was hoping for just the one charge to be honest.

Is there any reason why i could have received these two charges separately and almost two weeks apart?

Can i actually have any defence with this? as these two separate 3 point charges total up to 6 and with my current 3 points i will have 9 altogether and this will put me on judge every time i am driving.

Could i ask them to maybe join the charges together (if that has ever happened) and maybe get lower points combined together?

How likely will it be if i wanted to challenge this and could lose and end up with in a worse situation?

Any help is appreciated, thanks

NewJudge

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Re: Totting up or potential ban?
« Reply #11 on: September 11, 2023, 09:06:15 pm »
Do the two relate to the same incident?

unknowndriver

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Re: Totting up or potential ban?
« Reply #12 on: September 11, 2023, 09:43:27 pm »
Do the two relate to the same incident?

Yes, they relate to the same incident mentioned in the pdf i uploaded in the reply before today

I also have 3 points for driving without due care and attention, is it possible to get charged again for something i already have points for?

Southpaw82

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Re: Totting up or potential ban?
« Reply #13 on: September 11, 2023, 10:10:09 pm »
I also have 3 points for driving without due care and attention, is it possible to get charged again for something i already have points for?

From your opening post, that was from a different incident in 2021, so yes, of course you can get charged for the same offence committed on a different occasion. Be a bit weird otherwise.

unknowndriver

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Re: Totting up or potential ban?
« Reply #14 on: September 11, 2023, 10:15:01 pm »
I also have 3 points for driving without due care and attention, is it possible to get charged again for something i already have points for?

From your opening post, that was from a different incident in 2021, so yes, of course you can get charged for the same offence committed on a different occasion. Be a bit weird otherwise.

Yes that was a different incident, i was just unsure if you could "stack" the same charges.

Do you think i could have any defence for the current charges?