Author Topic: Speeding Ticket - First time in a Magistrate Court - england  (Read 410 times)

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SpoonAppleGirl

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Speeding Ticket - First time in a Magistrate Court - england
« on: September 05, 2024, 04:42:49 am »
I have a few questions regarding Magistrate Courts in general as i have never been to one, and also a few things about what i should or shouldnt say to the court regarding my situation.
For a little more context i am a 20F who was 19 when i got caught by a police van, at the time i was actively completing my motorbike training aiming to acquire my A2 Licence.
I had just picked up my first bike on my CBT which i planned on riding for a few weeks while i continued my training in preparation for my test on the big bikes, one of the things my instructor kept picking up on was my control of my speed i kept either slowing down or speeding up over time while going down straight road or on hills etc. Basically i was inexperienced and still learning (this was my first time ever using the road as i didnt and still dont have a car licence).
On the day of the incident i was going on a 2-3hr to my university off motorways as i was on my CBT hense why it took so long and why i was aiming for my A2 licence, halfway there i was going down a fairly steep hill with a relatively clear road ahead, and due to my inexperience at the time i ended up getting flashed my a police van going 50mph in a 30mph.
Not long after this incident i got my A2 Licence purchased a larger bike and have done about 7000miles on the road commuting to university, visiting family and using it as my daily vehicle without any other incidents.
With all of this in mind i got a Fixed Penalty Notice that they revoked and Replaced with a Single Justice Procedure, i said i was guilty and requested to attend court.
Im aware that i was 1mph away having my licence outright revoked (new learners act + 6 points = no more licence) so i feel lucky to even have the chance to keep my licence. Currently im unsure if any of the above is worth mentioning/bringing up as a "defense" or as a way of showing them that i have since become a better, safer and more competent rider.
On another note when it comes to attending court the only outfit i have that i believe is appropriate would be a simple black straight dress with some black boots and a simple/smart black handbag. Nothing that stands out just smart/formal.
When it comes to talking to them how should i refer to the magistrate or should i expect them to talk me through everything?
Sorry for this long post thanks for reading, im hoping that explaining mostly everything to do with my situation someone will be able to clear up some of my concerns and give me a better idea of what i should and shouldnt say in the court, and if anyone has been in a similar situation what the court issued them with and what attending court was like.

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andy_foster

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Re: Speeding Ticket - First time in a Magistrate Court - england
« Reply #1 on: September 05, 2024, 09:39:53 am »
With all of this in mind i got a Fixed Penalty Notice that they revoked and Replaced with a Single Justice Procedure, i said i was guilty and requested to attend court.
Im aware that i was 1mph away having my licence outright revoked (new learners act + 6 points = no more licence) so i feel lucky to even have the chance to keep my licence.

As has been said (and subsequently removed for being bollox), most of what you have told us is essentially irrelevant.

You mention your A2 licence (generally a misnomer) and CBT, but you do not mention whether or not you held a full licence before passing your A2 tests.

The passage I quoted above might benefit from some clarification.

Generally, fixed penalties are offered for up to 49mph in a 30mph limit. This is a police guideline and not the law. Fixed Penalty Notices are generally never issued for speeding, with Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty notices being issued instead. The biggest distinction is that those that claim to have received the former generally are not overly concerned about providing those that they are seeking advice from with accurate information in order to provide meaningful advice!

A COFP (or FPN) cannot simply be revoked, unless you were liable to tot-up to 12 points (which is the condition of a COFP).

The Road Traffic (New Drivers) Act 1995 applies to offences committed during the probationary period of 2 years from first becoming a qualified driver (when you pass the appropriate tests). E.g. if you passed your car tests a year before you got caught speeding, you would have been in your probationary period. If you only held a provisional licence at the time, your probationary period had not started, so the New Drivers Act would not apply.

N.B. Assuming that you get 6 points for this offence, and assuming that your A2 licence was your first full licence/entitlement, if you subsequently get any more points for an offence committed within the probationationary period, your licence will be revoked.

You might be aware that you were 1mph away from having your licence revoked, but I have no idea how you reached that conculsion, or what "outright" revoked means.

« Last Edit: September 05, 2024, 02:15:45 pm by andy_foster »
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SpoonAppleGirl

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Re: Speeding Ticket - First time in a Magistrate Court - england
« Reply #2 on: September 05, 2024, 01:36:58 pm »
Im honestly unsure what the first thing i was given was i remember fixed penalty was in the name, i have since moved house and the letter is still boxed up somewhere (i know thats irresponsible but ive at least kept my summons and statement of facts on me).
I just remember after saying im guilty they sent me a letter that this couldnt be handle under the previous method and forwarded it onto the single justice.
I should probably go digging for these letters again at some point soon.

The speeding offence was committed while i was on my provisional licence, a few weeks after that i got my A2 Licence.
I have never had a full licence for any vehicle type before this.

Just to clarify i was under the impression that if i get 6 points on my provisional them points will carry over onto my full meaning i would lose my licence as i would have 6 points. This is what i meant about having my licence instantly revoked as going over 50 in a 30 is 6 points opposed to 4-6 points.

From what you said in your post it sounds like i can get 6 points on my licence but still be allowed to keep my licence, on the condition i dont commit any more offences?

Thanks for taking the time to help me with this, my messages definetly have come across as scattered thoughts instead of anything comprehensible.

andy_foster

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Re: Speeding Ticket - First time in a Magistrate Court - england
« Reply #3 on: September 05, 2024, 02:09:02 pm »
For the avoidance of doubt, a revocation under the New Drivers Act can only be triggered by points being given for an offence committed within the probationary period. If such points take your total of relevant points to 6 or more, the DVLA will revoke your licence with notice - at which point you would need to re-apply for a provisional, etc.

Assuming you get the 6 points, they will be on your full licence, and if they had been awarded before you passed your tests, they would be carried over to your full licence, but it requires an offence committed within the probationary period to trigger a revocation under the NDA.

Look up s. 2(1)(f) Road Traffic (New Drivers) Act 1995 if you want to see the authoritative source.

As regards the NDA, getting 3-8 points for offences committed before passing your tests would leave you a single 3 point offence committed during the probationary period away from a revocation. The significance of 6 points over say 3 points, is that you are that much closer to a 12 point totting up ban (12 points for offences committed within 3 years).

N.B. Effectively you only ever have one driving licence. When a provisional licence is "upgraded" to a full licence, it includes the full entitlement to the appropriate classes of vehicle, and usually provisional entitlements to others.

Most provisions concerning points on licences concern the date of offence, not the date of conviction - although insurers require you to declare for 3 or 5 years from date of conviction to ensure that hey get their pound of flesh.

Quote
Im honestly unsure what the first thing i was given was i remember fixed penalty was in the name, i have since moved house and the letter is still boxed up somewhere (i know thats irresponsible but ive at least kept my summons and statement of facts on me).
I just remember after saying im guilty they sent me a letter that this couldnt be handle under the previous method and forwarded it onto the single justice.

If you complied with the requirements to accept a fixed penalty, then you cannot lawfully be prosecuted for the offence., regardless of whether or not a fixed penalty would usually have been offered for that speed. However, if you did not comply (e.g. did not send of the required identification details, or did not comply with the timescales), then you, err, did not comply and they can still lawfully prosecute.

Quote
I should probably go digging for these letters again at some point soon.

That might be a good idea.

N.B. If you are looking to defend the matter, how to approach the court (simple one word answer - respectfully) would be of secondary relevance (the first being the defence itself). If you do not have a defence, there seems little point in getting dressed up, leaving purple hair and pronouns at the door, and spending half a day in court to almost certainly get the same paint-by-numbers sentence you would get by being sentenced in our absence.
« Last Edit: September 05, 2024, 02:23:03 pm by andy_foster »
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SpoonAppleGirl

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Re: Speeding Ticket - First time in a Magistrate Court - england
« Reply #4 on: September 05, 2024, 02:17:18 pm »
Just found the letter and it had nothing to do with a fixed penalty i have no idea where i got this idea from...

I first recieved a NIP, then they sent me a letter saying due to the high speed the case will be prepared for the Single Justice Procedure.

NewJudge

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Re: Speeding Ticket - First time in a Magistrate Court - england
« Reply #5 on: September 05, 2024, 05:39:27 pm »
Then as Andy says, if you committed this offence before you passed your test, the the provisions of the New Drivers' Act will not kick in. Any further offences you commit before the second anniversary of passing your test and which attract points will see your licence revoked.

To add to that, if the second offence takes you to twelve or more points, you will face a six month disqualification (unless you can show that aa ban will result in "exceptional hardship"). This will mean you will not be able to apply for a new licence (and so book your re-test) until that ban is ended.
« Last Edit: September 05, 2024, 05:50:05 pm by NewJudge »

Southpaw82

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Re: Speeding Ticket - First time in a Magistrate Court - england
« Reply #6 on: September 05, 2024, 06:06:46 pm »
I’m not sure that I would tell a court that I was inexperienced and had trouble keeping a steady speed and as a result rode at 20mph in excess of the speed limit. That stretches credulity. It seems more likely that your inexperience led to you missing the relevant limit (unless you say that you knew the limit at the time).

SpoonAppleGirl

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Re: Speeding Ticket - First time in a Magistrate Court - england
« Reply #7 on: September 05, 2024, 06:17:39 pm »
So i have definetly reflected on this situation and trying to explain anything regarding why it happened will just make me sound like i was riding carelessly, the alternative being that i intentionally broke the speed limit.

Especially considering what NewJudge has said clarified theres a low chance ill lose my licence regardless of the amount of points i recieve, so it seems my best option would be be humble avoid being defensive and essentially appologise.

Would it make any sense to possibly talk about the amount of miles i have since ridden and try to point out that i have been 'clean' since that incident.

Im not sure anyone here can/will advise me on what i should say especially considering you only know me as a random online person with a speeding ticket in the post.
But i feel its worth asking while your all helping me out and have been givening me genuinely helpful infomation/advise.
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andy_foster

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Re: Speeding Ticket - First time in a Magistrate Court - england
« Reply #8 on: September 05, 2024, 06:46:05 pm »
Absent exceptional circumstances (e.g. rushing to see a loved one on their death bed, or some kind of medical emergency), applicable mitigation for a run of the mill motoring offence is quite rare. In other words, there is little that you will be able to say that will lighten the sentence.

However, there are any number of things that you can say that could constitute aggravating factors - in other words, make things worse.

Education tends to focus on the development of the student. As regards speeding, courts tend to be more like the cafeteria - that's today's menu, those are the prices, and tough luck, that's sold out.

The court will not sentence you more harshly for turning up in person and taking up their time by giving the same performance of how ashamed you are to be before them, etc., that they've heard 10 times already that day, but they aren't going to be offended if you send in a note expressing the same sentiments, nor will they give it any less weight than the zero weight they would have given if you expressed it in person.

If you feel that the experience of going to court will help you focus on the consequences of [getting caught] speeding, then it might be a worthwhile exercise. If you think that it is required or is likely to result in a substantially lesser punishment, then  would suggest waiting for a tame magistrate's opinions on the matter...
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