Author Topic: Speeding and section 172 notice.  (Read 357 times)

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a1guv

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Speeding and section 172 notice.
« on: November 27, 2024, 10:44:39 am »
Sorry first time posting so do not know how to put things or if its too long and too detailed.
I got a section 172 and did not deal with it straight away as I was dealing with the death of a 1-month-old in the family. (2 days prior to speeding offence) I did not deal with any post during this time and only dealt with it the day after the funeral. Luckily, I had 1 day left to return the section 172 notice, but, due to doing a lot of running around over those few weeks (my wife and I was doing the running around) neither of us could remember who was driving at that time.
The 172 states that making a false declaration is an offence, so rather than fill out, sign and send the 172, I sent it back with a covering letter explaining the situation. I asked If I could receive the ticket, as we are both acceptable for a driver awareness course, and it was probably a 70/30 split of who was most likely the driver.( I did not want to fill out and sign and then find it was not  me and end up in prison like the MP and my wife also then getting done for the speeding)
I never heard anything back from them, and forgot all about it, until one day I received a summons to court under the SJP. I filled out the forms and pleaded not guilty to the failure to provide 172 (as I had returned it in time and with a full explanation of the circumstances, and named a driver they could serve the speeding ticket on) and I pleaded not guilty to the speeding, as I cannot be certain beyond reasonable doubt that I was the driver, again worried they would turn round and say it was not me driving and do me for perjury. I also questioned why they were charging me with both charges as each charge negated the other.
I then received another summons telling me to attend court (not even my local court) for a pre-trial hearing. I attended expecting it to be in a small room with 1 magistrate court and the prosecutor only to find it was in open court and I had to make a plea, again I went not guilty for both, again giving brief reasons.
The prosecutor then dropped the speeding offence and would just carry on with the more serious offence. We then talked about evidence, and I asked why I have not been given the evidence (noted in both summonses, they claim they sent a second letter, which I have never received) that I had asked for and was told they do not need to give it to me until nearer the court case.
The magistrate in the centre of the three then asked something of the legal counsel sitting in front of them and was told a speed awareness course was not a punishment they could hand out. The magistrate then told me that if I plead guilty to the speeding offence, they will give me a fine and only 3 points on my licence and would not need to sign anything (I did not understand what this referred to) and the 172 charges would be dropped. Failure to do so would mean a much larger fine and more points under the 172 charges. I refused this offer and will now have to attend a trial, luckily at my local magistrate’s court (the centre magistrate was concerned that I had so far to travel with my disabilities). They then went on to what witnesses we would call, I had none, and the prosecution was calling **** I objected to this as this would increase any costs they may impose as I would not be questioning that the 172 notice was sent, so I saw it as a waste of taxpayers’ money to call a witness unnecessarily. They insisted they needed to be called as a witness.

To me the whole thing seems a farce and purely to convict no matter what, I am also concerned that after the prosecution dropped the speeding charge, the magistrates could re-instate it to try and make me plead now for a lesser charge and lesser punishment. I see this as coercion to make me confess to a crime I do not know that I committed, rather than face a more serious charge and harsher punishment.

Is what is happening to me legal? I know its not fair and just, like the law is supposed to be, and it seems that I must prove my innocence, rather than the prosecution prove my guilt. (some time during the proceedings the magistrate said I need to prove something, which I replied at the time, I thought it was the other way round)

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andy_foster

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Re: Speeding and section 172 notice.
« Reply #1 on: November 27, 2024, 11:02:14 am »
You did not comply with the requirement under s. 172 to name the driver. Subject to any statutory defence, you are guilty of the s. 172 offence.

The applicable statutory defence is that you do not know who was driving, and that you could not with reasonable diligence have determined who was driving. You would also have needed to have provided any information that was in your power to give and that might have lead to the identification of the driver. This is for you to prove to the satisfaction of the court (on the balance of probabilities).

Without evidence of the driver's identity, the speeding charge has no legs, and is essentially only included as a nicety to enable those with a weak or no defence to the s. 172 to take the lesser punishment for the speeding offence.

Prosecution evidence, beyond that the requirement was served on you and that no response unequivocally naming the driver was received, is utterly irrelevant to the s. 172 charge.
I am responsible for the accuracy of the information I post, not your ability to comprehend it.

NewJudge

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Re: Speeding and section 172 notice.
« Reply #2 on: November 27, 2024, 01:05:27 pm »
The offer to accept the speeding charge in exchange for the s172 charge being dropped was the best result you would get. In fact it's the strategy we suggest most people who have been charged with both but have no realistic defence to the s172 charge adopt, and actually make that offer themselves.

It doesn't particularly matter now but why did you refuse that offer?

The police were never going to offer either of you a course without an unequivocal admission from one of you to being the driver. The reason for that is that you could simply ignore the offer and the police could not prosecute either of you for speeding as they would have no evidence to prove who was driving.

If you are to take advantage of the statutory defence (that you did not know who was driving and could not, having exercised reasonable diligence, find out who was) you must demonstrate to the court that you have exhausted all reasonable avenues of enquiry. All you've said on here is that neither of you can remember who was driving.

If you present that as your defence in the trial it is very unlikely the court will accept that you have exercised "reasonable diligence", even bearing in mind the exceptional circumstances you found yourselves in at that time.

I'm not sure how the prosecution would view a suggestion from you to accept their earlier offer at this stage. One of the reasons they make such an offer is to save them the trouble of a trial. Your not guilty plea has already caused them to begin preparations, so they may well not be so favourably disposed to that idea.

A conviction under s172 is nasty. Not only does it result in a hefty fine and six points but it also leaves you with an endorsement code (MS90) which will see your insurance premiums increase considerably for up to five years. It is to be avoided if at all possible. My view is that you seem to have no realistic defence to a s172 charge and I would firstly explore ways of resurrecting the prosecution's offer to continue with the speeding charge only. If you get nowhere with that you must decide whether to plead guilty to the s172 charge (and so reduce the fine and costs - but not the points) or whether to try to defend it. But you will need to demonstrate that you did make some efforts to establish who was driving and you don't seem to have done that. 

a1guv

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Re: Speeding and section 172 notice.
« Reply #3 on: November 28, 2024, 12:31:43 pm »
What else do I need to do to prove we have exhausted all avenues? When I recived the SJP it said they had sent a second letter asking me to review photo's, but I never recived it. I have been asking for a copy ever since I recived the SJP but they have not supplied it. I asked again for it in court and was told they do not need to supply it until nearer the trial, the case notes say they have to supply within 28 days prior to trail. Until I get a copy of that letter I can not even check, so they are actually preventing me from checking.
To me it seems the entire process is skewed in their favour.

andy_foster

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Re: Speeding and section 172 notice.
« Reply #4 on: November 28, 2024, 01:22:19 pm »
What else do I need to do to prove we have exhausted all avenues?

You don't appear to have told us of any attempts to determine who was driving so far.
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NewJudge

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Re: Speeding and section 172 notice.
« Reply #5 on: November 28, 2024, 01:45:17 pm »
Quote
What else do I need to do to prove we have exhausted all avenues?

But you don't seem to have exhausted any avenues (not from what you've said on here, anyway). All you seem to have done up to now is asked for photographs. As you have already discovered, they are very unlikely to help you anyway as they are designed to identify the vehicle, not the driver.

Since it seems it could only be either you or your wife who was driving, what have you done between you to try to find out who it was? Have you examined phone records? Perhaps credit card transactions?

If you turn up and tell the court what you have said on here you will in all likelihood be convicted. I would say certainly in most cases but you do have the explanation of the circumstances you faced at that time to add to your argument. There are some successes among people who simply cannot remember. Here's a notable example:

https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2003/nov/28/northerner.heatherstewart

But they are rare. If it was that simple, everybody would do it. The more likely outcome is probably along these lines:

https://www.southwalesargus.co.uk/news/4604985.speeding-driver-demands-justice/

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Is what is happening to me legal?

Of course it's legal.

You were offered the opportunity to avoid facing the more serious charge if you pleaded guilty to the underlying offence. There was no coercion. The offer need not have been made and, with the prosecution for the more serious offence very likely to succeed, there was no need for it to have been made just to secure a conviction at all costs.

Quote
...and it seems that I must prove my innocence, rather than the prosecution prove my guilt.

The situation you are in is that you have committed an offence under s172 of the RTA by failing to provide the driver's details at the time of an alleged offence. There is a statutory defence (that is, one that is specifically mentioned in the legislation) which you can take advantage of if you wish, though my view is that it is unlikely to succeed (but that's only my view).

The order of events at your trial will be that the prosecution will present evidence that (they say) proves your guilt. That will be easy for them - they will prove you were served with a request and that you failed to provide an unequivocal response (neither of which seems in dispute so I don't know why they want to bring a witness).

Without any input from you that would be the end of the matter and you would be convicted, with the prosecution having proved your guilt. But you have the opportunity to take advantage of the statutory defence and obviously that is for you to prove to the court's satisfaction (though you should note that is "on the balance of probabilities" - i.e. more likely than not - and not to the more onerous standard of "beyond reasonable doubt"). So, yes, you have to prove your innocence but only after the prosecution has proved your guilt.