Author Topic: SJP but no NIP twice  (Read 213 times)

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MOCG

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SJP but no NIP twice
« on: October 29, 2024, 12:14:09 pm »
I have read through the other threads on this subject but wanted to outline my specific circumstances as they vary a little

I recieved a litter through last week detailing 2 cases of speeding from back & 2 cases of failing to provide info on the driver. The original charges stem from May, and I subsequently never recieved the NIPs

Relating to the speeading itself, 1 was 28 in a 20 and 1 was 30 in a 20, both from a temporary camera that had been set up on quite a steep hill on the next street along from my house (I did not know it was there). I only mention this part as I drive on this road multiple time a day every day majority and do try to stick under the limit but it can be quite easy to accidentally go over 20. Regardless though, not disputing the speeding itself

Then, after checking, I realise that I never recieved the NIPs as I hadnt remembered to update my V5C when I moved into a new house. I updated insurance and driving license but must have forgotten the V5C (even more frustrating as I had only updated it about a year prior when I moved into a rental).

I read on the other threads about entering not guilty to both but with the offer of changing to guilty for speeding if the other is dropped but I just have a few questions:

1 - Is the fact there are 2 charges more likely to mean they dont accept this plea and I should just plead guilty to both?

2 - Would the fact that there are 2 charges of each which would total 18 points (and me losing my license) mean they would look at this a little more leniantly at all?

3 - Is it worth mentioning any of the detail I gave above as some form of mitigation?
         -the fact that I did update it a year prior so it was clearly just a mistake with no malice intended
         -I have always responded within the time frame any time anything like this has happened before
         -the fact that they are both on the same road within 1 month of each other

4 - is my case one that should really go to court rather than through the online plea and or include a solicitor?

Or any other thoughts? I just feel like this is such a huge potential impact on me for what was an admin error (albeit one I know I should have updated)

Thanks in advance

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Southpaw82

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Re: SJP but no NIP twice
« Reply #1 on: October 29, 2024, 12:26:18 pm »
1, 2 & 3 - no.

4 - it’s going to court because there is no other disposal method open to the police, except doing nothing. Not sure why you want to spend money on a solicitor.

666

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Re: SJP but no NIP twice
« Reply #2 on: October 29, 2024, 12:31:41 pm »
I have read through the other threads on this subject but wanted to outline my specific circumstances as they vary a little

I recieved a litter through last week detailing 2 cases of speeding from back & 2 cases of failing to provide info on the driver. The original charges stem from May, and I subsequently never recieved the NIPs

Relating to the speeading itself, 1 was 28 in a 20 and 1 was 30 in a 20, both from a temporary camera that had been set up on quite a steep hill on the next street along from my house (I did not know it was there). I only mention this part as I drive on this road multiple time a day every day majority and do try to stick under the limit but it can be quite easy to accidentally go over 20. Regardless though, not disputing the speeding itself

Then, after checking, I realise that I never recieved the NIPs as I hadnt remembered to update my V5C when I moved into a new house. I updated insurance and driving license but must have forgotten the V5C (even more frustrating as I had only updated it about a year prior when I moved into a rental).

I read on the other threads about entering not guilty to both but with the offer of changing to guilty for speeding if the other is dropped but I just have a few questions:

1 - Is the fact there are 2 charges more likely to mean they dont accept this plea and I should just plead guilty to both?

2 - Would the fact that there are 2 charges of each which would total 18 points (and me losing my license) mean they would look at this a little more leniantly at all?

3 - Is it worth mentioning any of the detail I gave above as some form of mitigation?
        -the fact that I did update it a year prior so it was clearly just a mistake with no malice intended
        -I have always responded within the time frame any time anything like this has happened before
        -the fact that they are both on the same road within 1 month of each other

4 - is my case one that should really go to court rather than through the online plea and or include a solicitor?

Or any other thoughts? I just feel like this is such a huge potential impact on me for what was an admin error (albeit one I know I should have updated)

Thanks in advance
Presumably the "letter" is a Single Justice Procedure Notice?

1. No.

2. Very unlikely

3. - No. No intent is required.
- Do you really want to portray yourself as a serial offender?
- No

4. Some justices will accept the "deal" online. If not, you have to go to court and speak to the prosecutor. No need for a lawyer.

ManxTom

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Re: SJP but no NIP twice
« Reply #3 on: October 29, 2024, 01:50:26 pm »


1 - Is the fact there are 2 charges more likely to mean they dont accept this plea and I should just plead guilty to both?...

Why on earth would you want to plead guilty to all four charges and get yourself lumbered with 18 points and get banned?

Perhaps I'm wrong (and if I am I'll be quickly corrected) but I'd have thought all you need to do is to follow the standard advice on here - ie plead "Not Guilty" to all four charges, but make it clear that if, and only if, the prosecution drop the two failure to identify charges, you'd be willing to change your plea to "Guilty" for the two speeding offences.

Of course you can only do this deal if you actually were the driver when the two speeding offences were committed

MOCG

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Re: SJP but no NIP twice
« Reply #4 on: October 29, 2024, 04:24:26 pm »
1, 2 & 3 - no.

4 - it’s going to court because there is no other disposal method open to the police, except doing nothing. Not sure why you want to spend money on a solicitor.

Do you mean that youd expect this will go to court if I plead anything other than guilty? I guess my thought is just that I want to somehow avoid losing my license and Im really not familiar with how all this works where a solicitor might be?

Im kind of panicking, I dont know if its really black and white so if I plead guilty then I get all the points & fine (the notice does say its a reduced fine for pleading guilty), and if I plead not guilty and it goes to court I still get all the points & the full fine - or would going to court allow me to plead a case and maybe hope for some leniancy?

MOCG

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Re: SJP but no NIP twice
« Reply #5 on: October 29, 2024, 04:40:00 pm »

Presumably the "letter" is a Single Justice Procedure Notice?

1. No.

2. Very unlikely

3. - No. No intent is required.
- Do you really want to portray yourself as a serial offender?
- No

4. Some justices will accept the "deal" online. If not, you have to go to court and speak to the prosecutor. No need for a lawyer.
[/quote]

Yes sorry poor terminology, the SJP notice.

So you still think theres a good chance that they would accept? I guess Im worried that by pleading not guilty and then going to court they would view that negatively when they ask me what my reason for pleading not guilty is, because Id have to say its because of the V5C which had the incorrect address which then makes it open and closed. Where if I plead guilty I could at least say what happened and let them know that Id also lose 10% of my salary if I was to lose my license. If you go to court and speak to the prosecuter about the deal what reason would there be for them to accept it?

But honestly I really arent too familiar with how all this works and am really worried

I really appreciate the feedback

Southpaw82

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Re: SJP but no NIP twice
« Reply #6 on: October 29, 2024, 04:40:09 pm »
By “going to court” I mean that your case will be dealt with by a court, rather than by the offer of a driving course or a fixed penalty.

I think you have been advised what to do, you just need to listen to the advice.

MOCG

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Re: SJP but no NIP twice
« Reply #7 on: October 29, 2024, 05:04:20 pm »
Its more that Im worried that by pleading not guilty they might view it as wasting their time and then just go all out with all the full punishment. And also considering that they found me with the SJP notice I guess they must have worked out that the V5C was wrong?

Ive spoken to a few solicitors for initial advice already with mixed feedback:
 -first one said theyd have to go to court, and that theyd start by trying the plea deal option, but want crazy money for it
 -second one said theres no defence and I should just plead guilty
 -third one said that apparently they would say its 6 points as long as the failure to provide info charge relates to the same speeding instance so thatd still make it 12 points between the 2 instances. I also Asked this one about making the plea and they said itd definitely go to court, and that deal only really applies if the address was correct but you didnt recieve it?

If my best option is still to try this then I will, Im just trying to understand if the incorrect address on the V5C basically means the plea has no chance of working

666

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Re: SJP but no NIP twice
« Reply #8 on: October 29, 2024, 05:24:25 pm »

If my best option is still to try this then I will, Im just trying to understand if the incorrect address on the V5C basically means the plea has no chance of working
On this site (and its predecessor) we have seen literally hundreds of cases where a plea deal has succeeded, and only ONE where it has failed. In the latter case I believe the individual concerned spectacularly failed the attitude test.

AIUI the CPS much prefer to secure a conviction for the underlying (safety-related) driving offence rather than spend court time trying a contested "technical" offence.

NewJudge

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Re: SJP but no NIP twice
« Reply #9 on: October 29, 2024, 05:24:51 pm »
Quote
So you still think theres a good chance that they would accept?

I think there has been only one reported occasion on here where the "deal" was not accepted. That was where the defendant was "less than polite" to the prosecutor, telling him what he could and couldn't do. So the prosecutor showed him what he could do and (I believe) he ended up with nine points.

This procedure is carried out up and down the land every day. All court users (prosecutors, magistrates, and their legal advisors) are familiar with it. In some areas they even make it easy for defendants by laying the charges "in the alternative". That is, they make it clear that if the defendant pleads guilty to one charge, the other will be dropped. In other words, they make the offer that we suggest you make.

Quote
when they ask me what my reason for pleading not guilty is...

You won't be asked. At present you cannot be convicted of speeding unless you plead guilty. The police do not know who was driving - that comes from the response to the request that you did not receive.

Quote
"If you go to court and speak to the prosecuter about the deal what reason would there be for them to accept it?"
Because they want an easy life!  ;) Provided they are sure you are not trying to gain an undue advantage they have no real interest in prosecuting you for what, certainly in your case, is caused by an administrative oversight. They know that the consequences of that are far more severe than speeding itself.

This is your "leverage". You make the deal and the police get a conviction for speeding, they avoid a trial for the other charge and you avoid a conviction for it (which is far nastier in its effects than speeding).

Quote
-first one said theyd have to go to court, and that theyd start by trying the plea deal option, but want crazy money for it

You can do it yourself for nothing.

Quote
-second one said theres no defence and I should just plead guilty

He's an idiot and should not be giving such advice.

Quote
-third one said that apparently they would say its 6 points as long as the failure to provide info charge relates to the same speeding instance so thatd still make it 12 points between the 2 instances.

Ditto

Quote
and that deal only really applies if the address was correct but you didnt recieve it?

Ditto. The circumstances you describe are often the ones which lead to this procedure being necessary.

Quote
Im just trying to understand if the incorrect address on the V5C basically means the plea has no chance of working

It's certainly your fault that you are in this position. But it very often is the fault of the defendant and that's no reason why the deal would not be accepted.

I can understand your concern, but there is no reason at all why you should not successfully negotiate this procedure yourself successfully. As above, some courts actually make it easy for defendants by laying the charges as alternatives. Prior to the pandemic it was virtually certain that a court visit would be necessary to complete it. During Covid courts were eager to keep as many people out of the courtroom as possible and they began accepting it remotely. In many areas they have continued this.
« Last Edit: October 29, 2024, 05:27:26 pm by NewJudge »

andy_foster

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Re: SJP but no NIP twice
« Reply #10 on: October 29, 2024, 05:46:17 pm »
By “going to court” I mean that your case will be dealt with by a court, rather than by the offer of a driving course or a fixed penalty.

I think you have been advised what to do, you just need to listen to the advice.

Either take our advice, or don't. Please refrain from making noise by asking questions that have already been answered.
I am responsible for the accuracy of the information I post, not your ability to comprehend it.