3. Single Justice Procedure Notice & fine refund
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Single Justice Procedure Notice & fine refund
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Hi,
I have recently received a Single Justice Procedure Notice letter (12/10/2024)from Metropolitan Police, for a speed offence - going on 35mph on a 30mph road.  About a week later, they sent me an email saying ''This e-mail confirms a refund requested for your order placed with MoJ-HMCTS Fixed Penalty Office on 17/06/2024'' for the amount of £100 which is a speed fine I paid on the 17/06/24, for the same offence.

I called the court and they can't tell exactly why I am getting a refund and why they've now changed it to a SJPN, they have suggested possible reasons why that happed, and one of the common one was that they haven't received my details and driving license back, but they did for sure, as they have included copy of the signed response from me, dated 01 May 2024.

I've had  -3 points taken in November 2023 and did the course already.
I've had 3 fines this year and all of them from the same road and I am mad at myself because I always use the app Waze to go everywhere, as it shows speed limit, and I believed I stick to it especially when it shows cameras, so I don't get why I still get fines for it on that same spot. Could it be that Waze speed limit on that area is not accurate? I know I should be aware of the signs and not solely rely on Waze, but shouldn't it be accurate either way?

In case someone else got a fine in the same spot, the named road is A40 nr Terrick StW12 to A40 nr Paddington Grn W2 E/B

Has anyone had a similar experience?

Any suggestion on what might happens? points? expensive fine? suspension?

>:(  ***UPDATE: I have just received a reply to my emails I sent 3 days ago to from North and Wales FPO :

"Your fine was paid on the 17th June 2024 and as part of the conditional offer you were required to also send in your licence details for your licence to be endorsed. As your driving licence details were not received within the specified period, the Metropolitan Police have now commenced proceedings in the magistrates' court. This can no longer be dealt with at the fixed penalty stage, you have been refunded and you will receive a summons in due course.

Once a summons has been received you will know what court is dealing with your case and you can contact them for further information"

Thank you
« Last Edit: October 17, 2024, 10:43:05 am by LunaPiena »
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Re: Single Justice Procedure Notice & fine refund
« Reply #1 on: »
There are lots of threads on here where people have failed to read the Fixed Penalty offer and submit their licence details, and a court appearance is the result.  If this is first of the 3 offences, and you haven't sent licence details for the others, then this is the first of 3 court appearances....  There might still be time to submit licence details for the others - check!  The court fine will be higher, but still 3 points (per offence).  Not clear if you already have 3 points, and therefore adding 9?  In that case, the last case will potentially result in a totting up ban for getting to 12 points. 

Google street view clearly shows a reduction to 30mph over the flyover at the location of the offences with average speed cameras - you can't rely on Waze to be 100% right.
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Re: Single Justice Procedure Notice & fine refund
« Reply #2 on: »
Quote
...and one of the common one was that they haven't received my details and driving license back, but they did for sure, as they have included copy of the signed response from me, dated 01 May 2024.

As above, one of the most common reasons for having the fixed penalty refunded is failure to submit DL details. They must be submitted after the FP offer has been made, as part of the acceptance process. What happened before (e.g. submitting them when responding to the request for driver's details) if irrelevant.

You may be able to persuade the court to sentence you at the FP level. They have this guidance:

Where a penalty notice could not be offered or taken up for reasons unconnected with the offence itself, such as administrative difficulties outside the control of the offender, the starting point should be a fine equivalent to the amount of the penalty and no order of costs should be imposed. The offender should not be disadvantaged by the unavailability of the penalty notice in these circumstances.

Of course it was your fault that the FP could not be processed but the example given in the guidance is "such as" and not exhaustive. When responding to the SJPN You should explain the circumstances and respectfully request the court considers sentencing you at the FP equivalent.  A kindly single justice may be sympathetic and it will cost nothing to ask.

Quote
Could it be that Waze speed limit on that area is not accurate?
Possibly. But it's always best to look out of the window.
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Re: Single Justice Procedure Notice & fine refund
« Reply #3 on: »
Quote from: RichardW on October 17, 2024, 11:22:59 am
There are lots of threads on here where people have failed to read the Fixed Penalty offer and submit their licence details, and a court appearance is the result.  If this is first of the 3 offences, and you haven't sent licence details for the others, then this is the first of 3 court appearances....  There might still be time to submit licence details for the others - check!  The court fine will be higher, but still 3 points (per offence).  Not clear if you already have 3 points, and therefore adding 9?  In that case, the last case will potentially result in a totting up ban for getting to 12 points. 

Google street view clearly shows a reduction to 30mph over the flyover at the location of the offences with average speed cameras - you can't rely on Waze to be 100% right.

Hi, I have submitted my licence all 3 times, not sure now if they have received, if they are saying they didn't in this occasion. They have attached copy of my documents signed with driving license details on it, so for sure they have it, otherwise they wouldn't send it back to me. Offence date 15th april and I signed documents on 1st May.
In regards to point, I meant I had 3 point taken last year so now I have 9 points left on my licence.
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Re: Single Justice Procedure Notice & fine refund
« Reply #4 on: »

As above, one of the most common reasons for having the fixed penalty refunded is failure to submit DL details. They must be submitted after the FP offer has been made, as part of the acceptance process. What happened before (e.g. submitting them when responding to the request for driver's details) if irrelevant.

You may be able to persuade the court to sentence you at the FP level. They have this guidance:

Where a penalty notice could not be offered or taken up for reasons unconnected with the offence itself, such as administrative difficulties outside the control of the offender, the starting point should be a fine equivalent to the amount of the penalty and no order of costs should be imposed. The offender should not be disadvantaged by the unavailability of the penalty notice in these circumstances.

Of course it was your fault that the FP could not be processed but the example given in the guidance is "such as" and not exhaustive. When responding to the SJPN You should explain the circumstances and respectfully request the court considers sentencing you at the FP equivalent.  A kindly single justice may be sympathetic and it will cost nothing to ask.


HI, so I'm not sure I understand ...please be patience with me  :P
5th
Infraction happened on 15th April, received notice soon after and I signed it with date 1st May (they have sent me back my signed letter with DL details, so they have received it for sure) and sent it back. I thought that was the standard process, hence why they managed to offer a Fixed Penaly, which I paid on 17 June. Am I missing something? Is there any other way to make a mistake with providing DL details on time and pay FP on time?

I am not sure where is the fault..can you please clarify what i am missing , please  :)
« Last Edit: October 17, 2024, 12:15:17 pm by LunaPiena »
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Re: Single Justice Procedure Notice & fine refund
« Reply #5 on: »
In order to accept a conditional offer of a fixed penalty, you have to supply your driving licence details when you accept the penalty regardless of whether you provided them before in response to the s 172 notice. Did you do that?
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I am not qualified to give legal advice in the UK. While I will do my best to help you, you should not rely on my advice as if it was given by a lawyer qualified in the UK.
Re: Single Justice Procedure Notice & fine refund
« Reply #6 on: »
Quote from: LunaPiena on October 17, 2024, 11:57:07 am

In regards to point, I meant I had 3 point taken last year so now I have 9 points left on my licence.

Oh dear... that means that the third offence here is going to result in a 6 month 'totting up' ban for reaching 12 points.
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Re: Single Justice Procedure Notice & fine refund
« Reply #7 on: »
Quote from: Southpaw82 on October 17, 2024, 12:21:18 pm
In order to accept a conditional offer of a fixed penalty, you have to supply your driving licence details when you accept the penalty regardless of whether you provided them before in response to the s 172 notice. Did you do that?

From your question I assume there is a second part where I have to provide my driving license second time, which i don't remember doing, so It could be that I have not done it. OMG that's so silly :'(  :'(
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Re: Single Justice Procedure Notice & fine refund
« Reply #8 on: »
Quote from: LunaPiena on October 17, 2024, 11:57:07 am

Hi, I have submitted my licence all 3 times, not sure now if they have received, if they are saying they didn't in this occasion. They have attached copy of my documents signed with driving license details on it, so for sure they have it, otherwise they wouldn't send it back to me. Offence date 15th april and I signed documents on 1st May.

It sounds like you have provided your licence details on the S172 form you sent back to identify the driver. However the COFP requires you to return the form with your licence details filled in also. Did you do that or just submit payment online?

Is this SJPN related to the earliest offence or the most recent? If the most recent, than that does cloud matters if you have responded exactly the same on the two preceding COFPs.


Quote from: LunaPiena on October 17, 2024, 11:57:07 am
In regards to point, I meant Ihad 3 point taken last year so now I have 9 points left on my licence.

What do you mean 3 points taken last year leaving you with 9 points? You received zero points for the offence last year you did a course for. No points are added or deducted. You start with zero points and 'earn' points for each offence. So in theory assuming the first two 2024 offences have been processed you will be on 6 points currently, with more to be endorsed once this case has concluded.   

However I am aware that you might think you start with 12 and points are deducted until you hit zero, and that this is the first offence of 2024 that has just hit the SJP stage. What are dates of the other offences?

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Re: Single Justice Procedure Notice & fine refund
« Reply #9 on: »
Quote from: BertB on October 17, 2024, 12:43:55 pm
Quote from: LunaPiena on October 17, 2024, 11:57:07 am

Hi, I have submitted my licence all 3 times, not sure now if they have received, if they are saying they didn't in this occasion. They have attached copy of my documents signed with driving license details on it, so for sure they have it, otherwise they wouldn't send it back to me. Offence date 15th april and I signed documents on 1st May.

It sounds like you have provided your license details on the S172 form you sent back to identify the driver. However the COFP requires you to return the form with your license details filled in also. Did you do that or just submit payment online?

Is this SJPN related to the earliest offence or the most recent? If the most recent, than that does cloud matters if you have responded exactly the same on the two preceding COFPs.

Yes I think I only provided DL details to identify driver only, which sounds so stupid now that I am realizing the mistake.


However I am aware that you might think you start with 12 and points are deducted until you hit zero, and that this is the first offence of 2024 that has just hit the SJP stage. What are dates of the other offences?

Yes I think I only provided DL details to identify driver only, which sounds so stupid now that I am realizing the mistake.
Also Yes I got confused...I have 3 points from November 2023 and endorsement course was 2022.
« Last Edit: October 17, 2024, 01:33:22 pm by LunaPiena »
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Re: Single Justice Procedure Notice & fine refund
« Reply #10 on: »
Quote from: RichardW on October 17, 2024, 12:33:49 pm
Quote from: LunaPiena on October 17, 2024, 11:57:07 am

In regards to point, I meant I had 3 point taken last year so now I have 9 points left on my licence.

Oh dear... that means that the third offence here is going to result in a 6 month 'totting up' ban for reaching 12 points.

I had to go back and check..so I had an endorsment course in 2022 for speed, a speed fine on  November 2023 which I got 3 points for and this year I had this speed fine in question in april 2024 and a yellow box fine with tfl in August, so speed fine this year only 1..somhow I felt like I had more  ;D

so Hopefully this one is the only SJPN I get
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Re: Single Justice Procedure Notice & fine refund
« Reply #11 on: »
Quote from: LunaPiena on October 17, 2024, 01:37:25 pm
Quote from: RichardW on October 17, 2024, 12:33:49 pm
Quote from: LunaPiena on October 17, 2024, 11:57:07 am

In regards to point, I meant I had 3 point taken last year so now I have 9 points left on my licence.

Oh dear... that means that the third offence here is going to result in a 6 month 'totting up' ban for reaching 12 points.

I had to go back and check..so I had an endorsment course in 2022 for speed, a speed fine on  November 2023 which I got 3 points for and this year I had this speed fine in question in april 2024 and a yellow box fine with tfl in August, so speed fine this year only 1..somhow I felt like I had more  ;D

so Hopefully this one is the only SJPN I get
As already explained, points are not "taken", they are added.

There is no such thing as an "endorsment course". If there was a course, there would be no endorsement, and vice-versa. Which was it?

The yellow box "fine" from TfL was a civil penalty, which is irrelevant.

Can you please clarify EXACTLY what is currently on your licence record?
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Re: Single Justice Procedure Notice & fine refund
« Reply #12 on: »
so Hopefully this one is the only SJPN I get
[/quote]
As already explained, points are not "taken", they are added.

You probably didn't see it but I had already clarified on previous posts that I only have 3 points from December 2023.

Apologies for wrong terms used, I meant o say that I did the speed awareness course in November 2022.
That's it, I've had no other point.
« Last Edit: October 17, 2024, 04:01:23 pm by LunaPiena »
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Re: Single Justice Procedure Notice & fine refund
« Reply #13 on: »
Just one last question..

when pleading guilty, is if better if I chose to attend court of it won't make much difference in term of getting away with a cheaper fine?
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Re: Single Justice Procedure Notice & fine refund
« Reply #14 on: »
Quote from: LunaPiena on October 17, 2024, 03:44:41 pm
Just one last question..

when pleading guilty, is if better if I chose to attend court of it won't make much difference in term of getting away with a cheaper fine?

It's very unlikely to make any difference. Sentencing usually simply follows the guidelines.

Even if it were to reduce the fine, you'd have to offset that against a day of your time plus travel costs.
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