Author Topic: Points still on licence after a ban. Is this right?  (Read 1448 times)

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mooney11

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Points still on licence after a ban. Is this right?
« on: September 07, 2023, 08:06:33 pm »
Hi,

Last year I had four offences against me, none of which I was aware of due to having not updated my v5C when moving house. The first two of those offences ultimately resulted in a 6-month totting ban for two s127 convictions. That ban ended two days ago. The other two offences were eventually endorsed onto my licence in June & July (whilst I was serving the ban), though the offences themselves took place several months before the ban for the s127 convictions came into force. The chronology of events is a total mess! My question...

I understand that when a ban has been served, all points on that licence are wiped along with it. However, the 6 points from the two offences finally endorsed this summer presently remain on the licence. Is this an error (or maybe even just something that has yet to be updated), or are points endorsed onto a licence whilst that licence is disqualified treated differently (not wiped)? I cannot find an answer to that online elsewhere.

Many thanks
« Last Edit: September 07, 2023, 09:33:12 pm by andy_foster »

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andy_foster

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Re: Points still on licence after a ban. Is this right?
« Reply #1 on: September 07, 2023, 09:37:34 pm »
Trying to follow your narrative already being familiar with your thread on PePiPoo is difficult enough. For anyone walking into this thread cold, I would suggest it would be nigh on impossible.

Short answer - a totting up ban wipes the points already on your licence (that lead up to the totting up ban). Any points earned after the ban started were not already on your licence when the ban started - which was almost certainly explained to you in your PePiPoo thread.
I am responsible for the accuracy of the information I post, not your ability to comprehend it.
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mooney11

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Re: Points still on licence after a ban. Is this right?
« Reply #2 on: September 07, 2023, 10:15:22 pm »
Thank you for the information. No, I had not been told this on the other forum (and I had not asked this in any case), and didn't wish to revive a convoluted thread for one question given most of te info in that thread is now redundant anyway.

At some point when the s127 charges are dropped and the underlying offences are endorsed, that will be another 6 points onto the licence. I was told that any ban time already served would be deducted from the total when I 're-tot'. Is that definitely the case? Having now already served 6 months I assume/bloody well hope(!) that there is no further ban. When I sought an answer to that previously, I was asking under a different set of assumptions (no reason to re-hash them here).

tonys

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Re: Points still on licence after a ban. Is this right?
« Reply #3 on: September 08, 2023, 08:45:19 am »
Short answer - a totting up ban wipes the points already on your licence (that lead up to the totting up ban). Any points earned after the ban started were not already on your licence when the ban started - which was almost certainly explained to you in your PePiPoo thread.
Are points "earned" on date of offence, date of conviction, or the date they actually sppear on the licence? In this case the offence dates were before the ban started, conviction date after.

Southpaw82

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Re: Points still on licence after a ban. Is this right?
« Reply #4 on: September 08, 2023, 09:13:49 am »
Road Traffic Offenders Act 1988, Section 45A(3) says:

Quote
An endorsement ordered on a person's conviction of an offence remains effective (subject to subsections (4) and (5) below)ó

(a) if an order is made for the disqualification of the offender, until four years have elapsed since the conviction, and

(b) if no such order is made, until eitheró

(i) four years have elapsed since the commission of the offence, or

(ii) an order is made for the disqualification of the offender under section 35 of this Act.

The points must have been endorsed prior to disqualification.

mooney11

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Re: Points still on licence after a ban. Is this right?
« Reply #5 on: September 08, 2023, 09:39:15 am »
Road Traffic Offenders Act 1988, Section 45A(3) says:

Quote
An endorsement ordered on a person's conviction of an offence remains effective (subject to subsections (4) and (5) below)ó

(a) if an order is made for the disqualification of the offender, until four years have elapsed since the conviction, and

(b) if no such order is made, until eitheró

(i) four years have elapsed since the commission of the offence, or

(ii) an order is made for the disqualification of the offender under section 35 of this Act.

The points must have been endorsed prior to disqualification.

Given then that 6 points were added whilst disqualified, and another 6pts will be added once there's a trial date in which the s127's will be "swapped" for the underlying offence after having already served the ban, will this then be interpreted as a new round of "totting" and a ban is back on the table?

Had everything happened in chronological order I fully understand how I would not have "re-banned" etc, but given the chronology of the endorsements etc is all over the place, will this effect the outcome? Or, as before, will the ban served be taken into account given that it was the result of convictions that have been (will be) overturned/dropped?

Thanks, appreciate the help. I had hoped I was out of the woods with all of this!

mooney11

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Re: Points still on licence after a ban. Is this right?
« Reply #6 on: September 09, 2023, 10:23:13 am »
So will I be facing another ban once the s127 convictions are dropped/'swapped' and 6 more points applied to licence? Not clear that previous advice still applies due to different chronology/assumptions so urgently seeking clarity.


Southpaw82

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Re: Points still on licence after a ban. Is this right?
« Reply #7 on: September 09, 2023, 11:23:57 am »
Do you mean s 172?

mooney11

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Re: Points still on licence after a ban. Is this right?
« Reply #8 on: September 09, 2023, 11:36:24 am »
As in singular? No, I had two offences in April & May last year which I didn't know about (V5C!) and I was convicted without knowing for each. Then in August & November two offences (again that i didn't know about at the time, but learned of quick enough to avoid further FtF issues), that were eventually endorsed whilst I was disqualified.

mooney11

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Re: Points still on licence after a ban. Is this right?
« Reply #9 on: September 10, 2023, 12:11:01 pm »
If anyone can tell me whether I'm facing another ban it would be most appreciated. Here's a brief summary of events/current standings:

1. 4 offences last year, knew about none of them (V5C!) and the first two went to court in my absence & I was convicted in each case for failing to name the driver, which meant 12 points & a totting ban.
2. Found out about all four offences in late February this year (the 3rd & 4th had not gone to court), and contacted Bath Magistrates within 21 days regarding the two that had resulted in FtN convictions in my absence (this is when I learned that I was banned).
3. Driving ban for the two s127 convictions began 7th March 2023 and ended earlier this week, on the 6th Sept. I served the full ban.
4. The 3rd & 4th offences were endorsed onto my licence over the last few months, whilst disqualified; 3 points each for speeding - and are on my licence now.
5. In July, after chasing for a response regarding my SD referral regarding the first two FtN proceedings, I was finally sent via email the SD forms & new SJPN's where I pleaded Not Guilty to the FtN & underlying offences, stating I would be willing to plead guilty to the underlying offences if the FtN charges were dropped. I submitted these back via email. I remain waiting to hear back with a trial date etc.

The result of that trial would put 6 points onto my licence from the underlying offences that led to the two s127 convictions, and that would put me back onto 12 points. Am I facing a ban again, or would having served a 6 month ban for convictions/charges that are dropped via the plea deal mean no further ban?

Thanks
« Last Edit: September 10, 2023, 12:12:42 pm by mooney11 »

Southpaw82

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Re: Points still on licence after a ban. Is this right?
« Reply #10 on: September 10, 2023, 01:08:22 pm »
The fact that you keep on saying 127 when I pointed out that itís 172 is oddly grating on me.

mooney11

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Re: Points still on licence after a ban. Is this right?
« Reply #11 on: September 10, 2023, 02:23:14 pm »
Ah ha! I don't know how I've got into the habit of typing it that way! But... Really? I'm here worried if I'm facing another 6 month disqualification and we're focussing on me mixing up two numbers that make no difference to the understanding of my question.

Now that we've established I'm a muppet... Are you able to help?

slapdash

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Re: Points still on licence after a ban. Is this right?
« Reply #12 on: September 10, 2023, 04:24:28 pm »
A second totting ban is for 12 months I believe.

NewJudge

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Re: Points still on licence after a ban. Is this right?
« Reply #13 on: September 10, 2023, 04:38:36 pm »
A second totting ban is for 12 months I believe.
Which would be quite unjust.

It seems the OP has been concurrently conducting two threads on the same issue here and on Pepipoo which I'd failed to notice:


http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showtopic=148851

His situation is not straightforward and it seems I managed to grasp it correctly in post #108 on Pepipoo:

- 2 x s172 convictions. Six points each, six months totting up ban (all of which you were not aware of).

- After those convictions, 2 x speeding convictions. Three points each (of which you were aware).

- Current situation: ban ended, six points on your licence. You want to perform a Stat Dec to have the s172 convictions set aside and you hope to be able to do a "deal" to have them dropped in exchange for a guilty plea to the underlying speeding offences. You have been provided with the original SJPNs for those two incidents and are awaiting a hearing to do the SDs and request your "deal."

mooney11

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Re: Points still on licence after a ban. Is this right?
« Reply #14 on: September 10, 2023, 05:02:32 pm »
Quote
It seems the OP has been concurrently conducting two threads on the same issue here and on Pepipoo which I'd failed to notice:

In the month and a half that had elapsed since I'd last posted on the other forum/thread, this new forum had popped up. I didn't know to what extent the old forum was still in use and at the time I couldn't locate my thread in the Speeding sub-forum or from my profile so posted here. I found it the old thread after having posted on here via a Google search.

I figured there's no harm in being on both given it might improve the chances of being responded to.
« Last Edit: September 10, 2023, 05:04:39 pm by mooney11 »