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Hello all,

Please can anyone help with suggestions for this as it is extremely frustrating.

Basically we were on the M60 (a stretch of motorway and journey we do a lot) and for a sunday evening had already passed what was very unusually two incidents with speed changes on the overhead gantries (smart motorway in operation).

We then proceeded on the motorway and ahead was another speed limit which my partner (who was driving) and I observed to clearly be 50mph in a red circle ahead in the distance. It remained as this limit until we passed it.  Prior to this due to the previous incident we were only doing mid fifty so it was a case of slowing a little.

Nevertheless after we passed we saw a flash much to our astonishment.  My immediate reaction was that it was the motorway below (as this part after is a bridge).  There were no cars there and very few ahead or around us and so I realised we must have been flashed and the limit must have changed to 40 while we passed underneath without any knowledge.  I could not accept this and immediately checked with partner and she said she saw 50 all the way, and I even asked our child in the back who also repeatedly said "it was 50!"   My child looked behind and saw another flash so another car must have also been incorrectly flashed.  I said I bet we receive a NIP saying it was 40 when it clearly was not.  Lo and behold we did. This shows we were doing 51, which shows sticking to the 50 as observed, which the NIP however says we did this through a 40 limit which was simply not the case.

This is simply not right and unfair. We complied with the limit we saw (albeit 1mph above which within fair discretion does not lead to a NIP) yet the NIP received says falsely we did this through a 40 limit.  Now if we were breaking the 40 limit it would be more like 47-49, not 51, and even I would hold my hand up and tell my partner it felt too fast.  This was not the case.

If it helps after this gantry there was an incident ahead in the distance, which was not observable before the gantry.  In any event at no point did the limit change down from 50 to 40.  Even if it did it we should have been given time beyond the gantry to not be flashed as we had no knowledge of it changing.  What can we do about this?  The photo sent to us of the gantry whilst showing 40mph does not show us prior to it or after.  I think we were flashed around 10 seconds after passing it.

Please can someone advise how I can upload a photo of their evidence (redacted)?

Many thanks

Yes I have the photos.  Saved as a photo on my computer and phone.  I cannot post it on here it seems.

Yes I have the photos.  Saved as a photo on my computer and phone.  I cannot post it on here it seems.

Post them on a hosting site and provide the links. The photos should have one showing the actual gantry, does this say 50 or 40?

I hope this works!

The picture of the gantry is taken from a distance back, at the same time your vehicle was detected speeding by the gantry in question. So recollection of the speed limit being 50 would seem to be incorrect. Taking this to court wouldn’t be a sensible thing to do.

The only plausible explanation

Or your (collective) observation skills are poor. Or your (collective) memories are poor. Or…

So not the only plausible explanation really.

There’s a principle used in the civil courts called Gestmin. Its basic tenet is that documentary evidence is superior to witness recollection. Case in point.

So what are you actually telling all three of us - that we made it up? 

Your observation skills are quite poor it seems because I never said that. It appears that the 40 mph limit had been in place for about an hour before you activated the camera.

The real point you ought to think of is what can be proven in court.

their second photo shows the roundels being on 40 long after we passed them - not before, or just as we went under.  Why not?

The first photo of the car is timed 19:54:26 and the photo of the gantry is timed 19:54:27, so I'm not sure "long after" is accurate. These cameras have a minimum 10 second delay in enforcement after a speed limit change, and if challenged the police will turn up with expert evidence to show how the equipment works. The record also shows the 40 mph limit had been in force for over an hour at the time when you went past the camera.

Are you basically saying that the sign said 50 mph at 19:54:25 or 19:54:26 when you went past it, and it changed in the split second between 19:54:26 and 19:54:27, and the system that is meant to pause enforcement for 10 seconds was faulty, and the record showing when the limit last changes was also faulty?

You can advance that as a defence if you wish, but you will probably want to instruct an expert who can provide expert evidence about how the system could have malfunctioned, because the Crown Prosecution Service will undoubtedly instruct an expert of their own if challenged.

This can be an expensive approach though, see this case: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-hereford-worcester-49641063