Author Topic: Oh my God. I've just got another! speed "A20 Eastbound, West of Sandy Lane to East of Cookham Road"  (Read 840 times)

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Donostio

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NIP Details and Circumstances

What is the name of the Constabulary? - Metropolitan Police

Date of the offence: - 27/03/2024

Date of the NIP: - 03/04/2024

Date you received the NIP: - 04/04/2024

Location of offence (exact location as it appears on the NIP: important): - A20 Eastbound, West of Sandy Lane to East of Cookham Road (48114821)

Was the NIP addressed to you? - Yes

Was the NIP sent by first class post, second class or recorded delivery? - 1st

If your are not the Registered Keeper, what is your relationship to the vehicle? - My vehicle

How many current points do you have? - 0 (but I have a NIP for 25mph in a 20mph zone due to be replied to, AND a I had a previous 25mph-in-a-20mph-zone for which I did the awareness course last year)



I'm reeling. I'm 49 years old - been driving for thirty years without any speeding offences and now I've got 3 within 12 months!  With the two live NIPs, will they be combined at court? Is it worth me pleading for lenience as a person who has a 30 year clear record and has switch to primarily checking the streets and not sat nav (which I was doing in error for all three tickets) and switched from Google maps to Wazes as a result of these?


 
I gather that "A20 Eastbound, West of Sandy Lane to East of Cookham Road" is infamous. It has gone from 70mph, to 50, to 40! There has been lots of noise about the new signage not being clear enough or people not being adequately alerted to the most recent change (the rouge/'unauthorised'50mph was removed before my ticket though). I don't know if these have any basis in law...
 


Again, I've have been relying to much on sav navs' which are not up to date. 



https://www.kentonline.co.uk/dartford/news/police-to-push-on-with-a20-speeding-fines-despite-fake-sig-301685/

https://www.newsshopper.co.uk/news/24078266.a20-eastbound-sidcup-leads-dozens-speeding-fines/

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c84nqxvvq37o

« Last Edit: April 04, 2024, 03:24:04 pm by Donostio »

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The Rookie

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By 'combined in court' do you mean will the court sentence you for a single offence? Not a hope!

As for lenience, going to court will cost more than a fixed penalty however lenient they are, absent an actual DEFENCE to an allegation (was the limit created correctly, is it signed correctly) you will now have 2 fixed penalties for 3pts/£100 each.

You're going to need to improve your observation obviously (also perhaps knowledge of speed limits and how they are signed), if your car has an adaptive speed limiter then learn to use it perhaps?

Nothing in those links helps you of course.
« Last Edit: April 04, 2024, 03:55:15 pm by The Rookie »
There are motorists who have been scammed and those who are yet to be scammed!

Donostio

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I'm not sure why you think I have intimated that I believe the court would for some reason only considered one offence.

What I have asked is would a court consider them together in the same hearing and would I have any mitigation by having a 30-year clear record and then being liable having relied (wrongly) on Google maps and being subject to (particularly for this second ticket) changing speed limit from 70 to 50 and then a hurried implementation of a 40
- which may meet the legal requirements (?) but clearly has caught out hundreds of people who are actively trying to follow the speed limit. Sorry if that was not clear in my first post.

NewJudge

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I know the stretch very well (I drove along it at 6:30am today). I also know about the publicity regarding the alleged lack of signage and about the rogue "50" sign.

The new limit is perfectly well signed. In fact, coming from the London direction, as well as the large "40" roundels I believe there is still a sign warning "new limit in force due to flooding risk" (or similar) between Frognal Corner and Crittals Corner.

The police statement was to do with the short period when the "rogue" 50 sign was present. This was allegedly erected by an unauthorised party (that stretch has never been subject to a 50mph limit) and the police calculated that it was so far into the stretch that drivers would have been exceeding the speed limit anyway before they reached it (the stretch is enforced by an average speed camera system).

So I don't see that you have any defence.

Neither this latest offence nor your earlier 25 in a 20 should go near a court. You should be offered a fixed penalty (£100 and three points) for each.
« Last Edit: April 04, 2024, 04:12:29 pm by NewJudge »

Donostio

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Thanks, that is a helpful reply.

Obviously I'm  concerned what 6 points is going to do to my car insurance and my ability to hire cars.

Yeah, I have to accept that it's all lawful, but going eastbound at least I did genuinely miss the 40 signs and have relied on habit and Google maps too much.

It seems others have genuinely done so as well.

It doesn't seem fair these three tickets in 12 months. After 30 years of driving and my efforts to follow the speed limit previously working fine.

Sometimes, Google maps previous experience/habit, and the nature of the road all appear to be at odds with the actual limit. I only go down there sporadically to Kent. And as you know, I've been relying on Google maps far too much.

So I'm hearing that there's no point in pleading for leniency? And I have to take 6 points and 200 quid.

Southpaw82

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I'm not sure why you think I have intimated that I believe the court would for some reason only considered one offence.

If he didn’t, it would be harder for him to berate you whilst ‘helping’ you.
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666

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So I'm hearing that there's no point in pleading for leniency? And I have to take 6 points and 200 quid.

Your 30-year clean licence is not mitigation. In any event, how would you prove it?

For at least some (possibly most) of those 30 years you must have managed OK without satnav, so you should be able to do so again.

If you were to ignore the advice and go to court, it would cost a lot more than £200.

slapdash

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You said in one of your other threads you had done a course for a 20mph offence some time ago.

Can you recall if it was a 20mph course? You may be able to find out from your booking/completion documentation.

There used to be a 20mph course, a national course and a motorway course. You could do one of each.

If it was a 20mph course then this offence may be eligible for a course.
« Last Edit: April 04, 2024, 06:21:16 pm by slapdash »

Donostio

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You said in one of your other threads you had done a course for a 20mph offence some time ago.

Can you recall if it was a 20mph course? You may be able to find out from your booking/completion documentation.

There used to be a 20mph course, a national course and a motorway course. You could do one of each.

If it was a 20mph course then this offence may be eligible for a course.

Yes, it was the 20mph course I did. I thought it was one chance at a course of any type. Do you have information that I could just get 3 points for the second 20 zone violation and do a course for the first 40mph violation (and so avoid 6 points)?

Donostio

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Your 30-year clean licence is not mitigation. In any event, how would you prove it?

For at least some (possibly most) of those 30 years you must have managed OK without satnav, so you should be able to do so again.

If you were to ignore the advice and go to court, it would cost a lot more than £200.

1) How do I prove what? That I have a clean licence? I don't foresee that being hard to do at all, do you? But as you have suggested it's probably not germane anyway.
 
2) Yes I have driven without Sat Nav in the past. What is your point? I will still rely on Sat Nav for navigation. If anything I will turn off the speed limit advice entirely so I 100% use signage and my highway code knowledge. Have you somehow got the impression that I have argued that I must rely on a Sat Nav for the speed limit? That is curious.

3) Why are you suggesting that I would ignore the advice of those with experience and knowledge on this site? In my last post I have literally summarised back the that advice that I have got and will be following. I came here to check if there was any value / merit in either questioning the A20 charge or asking for leniency. And I got the answer I needed - even if it's not the answer one might have hoped for.
« Last Edit: April 04, 2024, 07:20:23 pm by Donostio »

slapdash

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Yes, it was the 20mph course I did. I thought it was one chance at a course of any type.

I am not stating any certainties.

Historically it was one of each. The qualification was speed and has one of the same type been done.

Sometime (I think during covid) the only course for any offence that got offered became the NSAC course after they had figured online delivery.

There are some limited reports of people being offered NSAC course for a current offence where they have a completed 20mph or motorway course.

All you can do is wait and see.

6pts isn't the end of the world for insurance, but can be a problem for some corporate.

666

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Your 30-year clean licence is not mitigation. In any event, how would you prove it?

For at least some (possibly most) of those 30 years you must have managed OK without satnav, so you should be able to do so again.

If you were to ignore the advice and go to court, it would cost a lot more than £200.

1) How do I prove what? That I have a clean licence? I don't foresee that being hard to do at all, do you? But as you have suggested it's probably not germane anyway.
 
2) Yes I have driven without Sat Nav in the past. What is your point? I will still rely on Sat Nav for navigation. If anything I will turn off the speed limit advice entirely so I 100% use signage and my highway code knowledge. Have you somehow got the impression that I have argued that I must rely on a Sat Nav for the speed limit? That is curious.

3) Why are you suggesting that I would ignore the advice of those with experience and knowledge on this site? In my last post I have literally summarised back the that advice that I have got and will be following. I came here to check if there was any value / merit in either questioning the A20 charge or asking for leniency. And I got the answer I needed - even if it's not the answer one might have hoped for.
1. It's easy to prove that you currently have a clean licence. But points drop off after four years: how would you prove it had been clean for the previous 26??

2. It was you who said "I've have been relying to much on sav navs"

3. You asked "So I'm hearing that there's no point in pleading for leniency?". I'm not suggesting anything, just pointing out consequences of doing so.

NewJudge

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Just to emphasise, a fixed penalty is leniency. The police are perfectly entitled to see you prosecuted in court where the prosecution costs alone will be almost £100, and that's before you get to the actual fine and "Victim Surcharge".

Ziggyplayedguitar2

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Donostio


I am surprised there are not more people from the Sidcup Area seeking advice from pages like this and Pepipoo.


You get good free advice from ex Lawyers and Learned people on here.....please raise awareness of the 2 sites to friends and family who may also be suffering.



its going to be a real interesting time with the Court Cases about to start!!!

The Rookie

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I'm not sure why you think I have intimated that I believe the court would for some reason only considered one offence.

What I have asked is would a court consider them together in the same hearing
As you would get a fixed penalty there would be no need to be in court at all, that’s why ‘combined in court’ only seemed to have one logical meaning.
There are motorists who have been scammed and those who are yet to be scammed!