Author Topic: NIP received for driving without due care and attention  (Read 4664 times)

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Re: NIP received for driving without due care and attention
« Reply #15 on: »

Is an officer's written statement of events considered as adequate evidence for a driving offence? It would be surprising to hear that this is all that it takes, given that in this day and age, police vehicles will most certainly have dashcams fitted and could provide video evidence.
If you wish to challenge the officer's statement, he can be cross-examined in court. You can give your version of events. The court then decides.

However, that may not arise. As you say, they may well have video.

I've put in a request for information as directed by one of their agents -



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Re: NIP received for driving without due care and attention
« Reply #16 on: »
Quote
I've put in a request for information as directed by one of their agents -

EDIT: Sorry if you saw my earlier answer asking what you want. I missed your attachment.

How do you know this evidence exists?

I doubt very much whether the police will comply with your request even if it does. Video evidence is notoriously difficult to secure even in the event of a trial.

To gather this evidence will cost the police time and money and the idea of a fixed penalty is that it saves  them and you both of those.

I wish you luck but I believe your request will fall on deaf ears. But do let us know what happens so that we can advise others.

« Last Edit: June 27, 2025, 03:36:07 pm by NewJudge »

Re: NIP received for driving without due care and attention
« Reply #17 on: »
@Dr Tripwire  -  so this is from Norfolk & Suffolk Constabularies and they actually invite you to ask for evidence after you've recieved the options letter?

My understanding is that that is very unusual, but Norfolk & Suffolk are also unususal in that they allow you to nominate yourself online - most constabularies insist on return of the signed paper nomination if you name yourself.

[Edited so it now makes sense!]
« Last Edit: June 27, 2025, 04:39:01 pm by ManxTom »

Re: NIP received for driving without due care and attention
« Reply #18 on: »
Quote
I've put in a request for information as directed by one of their agents -

EDIT: Sorry if you saw my earlier answer asking what you want. I missed your attachment.

How do you know this evidence exists?

I doubt very much whether the police will comply with your request even if it does. Video evidence is notoriously difficult to secure even in the event of a trial.

To gather this evidence will cost the police time and money and the idea of a fixed penalty is that it saves  them and you both of those.

I wish you luck but I believe your request will fall on deaf ears. But do let us know what happens so that we can advise others.

No problem - I don't know if the (video) evidence exists - I only assume that it does and hope that they would provide it to me. That said, re-reading the statement, I cannot see how the sparse information that has been provided would be enough to lead to prosecution - only under circumstances where a vehicle has moved into a lane that I'm already in would I have been likely to have approached it at a higher speed than it was travelling. Additionally, I'm particularly careful when driving my campervan - as mentioned, it's 3+ tonnes and doesn't slow down as efficiently as a normal car due to it's mass - I'm aware of things like this enough so to not drive in a way that would increase the potential for an accident. Furthermore, while my dog is secured in a harness that connects to the seatbelt, I absolutely wouldn't want any harm to come to him - so extra caution is applied when he is in a vehicle with me.

There's also a lack of clarity around the undertaking statement - did I undertake or didn't I? It doesn't say either way. Did I move back into lane 2 leaving very little distance between my vehicle and the police vehicle - me being in front or behind it? If I did undertake, I would want to see the speed that the police vehicle was doing at the time of the undertaking and my moving back into lane 2 (IF I did undertake and move back into lane 2) as I wouldn't have done so leaving insufficient space between the 2 vehicles - there is a potential for the police vehicle to have sped up after I had undertaken - resulting in my not leaving a safe distance between vehicles.

I think the undertaking topic is (to a certain degree) a moot point as it is not officially an offence from my understanding - unless it has been done in a way that suggests driving without due care and attention - again...I'm not saying that I didn't undertake, I just don't remember. However, how the incident has been described simply doesn't describe my driving style - especially the before and after the alleged undertake.

I'll certainly update once I know more - I'll also write to the address that I have in the correspondence as a back up to the online request that I've made.

Re: NIP received for driving without due care and attention
« Reply #19 on: »


... To reiterate, my post is not about me being guilty or innocent - I have enough of a moral grounding to admit my wrongdoings if that is indeed the case - at this moment, I do not consider that what little evidence has been provided is enough to verify that the offence took place and would like more.

It may have been a case of me driving as they have claimed, I find it hard to believe but maybe I did commit the offence that they have stated but for whatever reason, I have no recollection of it. If I am provided further evidence (video evidence) that clearly shows me driving without due care and attention, I won't be making any efforts to try and convince anyone otherwise - however I am not willing to pay a fine, receive penalty points etc on the basis of the information I have so far.

As others have already said, you aren't legally entitled to see any evidence against you until you've actually been charged, and you haven't been charged yet.  Once you are charged the options of a course or conditional offer of a fixed penalty will be off the table and you are headed to court.  If you lose at court it will be much more expensive for you than what is currently on offer.

If when you get to court they provide video evidence of you committing the offence as charged, you will have fought and lost an expensive battle on a (misguided?) point of principle.

Your choice.

[Having said that, I'm aware from one of your later posts that the constabulary in question appears to invite requests for further evidence on traffic offences - so who knows.  Maybe they'll let you see the evidence and you'll be in a better position to decide]

Re: NIP received for driving without due care and attention
« Reply #20 on: »


... To reiterate, my post is not about me being guilty or innocent - I have enough of a moral grounding to admit my wrongdoings if that is indeed the case - at this moment, I do not consider that what little evidence has been provided is enough to verify that the offence took place and would like more.

It may have been a case of me driving as they have claimed, I find it hard to believe but maybe I did commit the offence that they have stated but for whatever reason, I have no recollection of it. If I am provided further evidence (video evidence) that clearly shows me driving without due care and attention, I won't be making any efforts to try and convince anyone otherwise - however I am not willing to pay a fine, receive penalty points etc on the basis of the information I have so far.

As others have already said, you aren't legally entitled to see any evidence against you until you've actually been charged, and you haven't been charged yet.  Once you are charged the options of a course or conditional offer of a fixed penalty will be off the table and you are headed to court.  If you lose at court it will be much more expensive for you than what is currently on offer.

If when you get to court they provide video evidence of you committing the offence as charged, you will have fought and lost an expensive battle on a (misguided?) point of principle.

Your choice.

[Having said that, I'm aware from one of your later posts that the constabulary in question appears to invite requests for further evidence on traffic offences - so who knows.  Maybe they'll let you see the evidence and you'll be in a better position to decide]

@ManxTom

No - the attachments are
1) a discussion with an online agent through their live chat system - (https://www.norfolk.police.uk/rqo/request/ri/request-information/) - you'll see in the chat (screenshot) that I asked how I can get information relating to the driving offence and they advised me to raise a Subject Access Request
2) the request I raised for evidence to be provided

The series of events was that I received the NIP, completed the form that was included to confirm that I was the driver at the time of the alleged offence. A few days later, I received the conditional offer of a fixed penalty / driver retraining course offer - they didn't invite me to request further information, I took it upon myself to seek further information.

You're right about one thing though - this has boiled my blood and has become a point of principal - I've been tempted to just give in a pay the fine/attend a course but then, should I go around and hand out cash to strangers in the street too? Because that's what this feels like (in some respects)...all said and done, I'd really like to weigh up my options but I will consider the sensible option of paying off the mafia (through gritted teeth)

Re: NIP received for driving without due care and attention
« Reply #21 on: »


I think the undertaking topic is (to a certain degree) a moot point as it is not officially an offence from my understanding - unless it has been done in a way that suggests driving without due care and attention - again...I'm not saying that I didn't undertake, I just don't remember. However, how the incident has been described simply doesn't describe my driving style - especially the before and after the alleged undertake.

You're right, but you haven't been charged with "undertaking" (slang for overtaking on the left). The charge is careless driving, which is defined as driving which "falls below what would be expected of a competent and careful driver."

Overtaking on the left is forbidden in the Highway Code, which arguably is the minimum standard "expected of a competent and careful driver".
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Re: NIP received for driving without due care and attention
« Reply #22 on: »
I didn't think you could make a subject access request in respect of prospective criminal proceedings?  (If you think about it it's fairly obvious why)

Where in Norfolk did this alleged offence occur?  (I live there so I'm curious what stretch of road it is)

I suppose you will just have to wait until you here back from them.  But I suspect that before they reply you will have passed the deadline for accepting a course or a fixed penalty and points.  You will probably have to decide on a course of action before you get theri reply - if they reply at all.


Re: NIP received for driving without due care and attention
« Reply #23 on: »
There are some things that can constitute careless driving, and some that invariably will constitute careless driving. Those that can tend to be careless when done without adequate care. Those that will tend to be considered careless in any circumstances.

As part of the IAM advanced motorcycle test, riders are expected to filter through traffic carefully when appropriate. Filtering is both undertaking and overtaking at the same time. The whole IAM thing is based on Roadcraft - the police advanced driving manual (albeit translated into English) - so if anything, the expected disciplines are higher than the standard expected of the average careful and competent rider.

Obviously, that does not mean that a driver undertaking a police car in a campervan is a better driver than the driver of the police car, or that undertaking would never constitute careless driving, but it does appear to call into question any assertion that undertaking invariably constitutes careless driving.

edit: As some may be aware, I am not a fan of undue brevity, and therefore perhaps not best placed to read between the single line of those who for some reason are, but if I were to briefly describe an incident involving a f*ck off great 3 tonne campervan bearing down on me at great speed, swerving into the inside lane, undertaking me, and then cutting me up swerving back into lane 2 in front of me, I think that I would use a more descriptive term than "vehicle bearing the VRM #########" to describe said campervan. That said, if I had contributed to the incident by cutting up the campervan in the first instance, then I might be inclined to omit as much detail as possible.
« Last Edit: June 27, 2025, 05:24:38 pm by andy_foster »
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Re: NIP received for driving without due care and attention
« Reply #24 on: »
I suspect that the officer involved hasn’t produced a witness statement yet (they are often only prepared from notes if the case goes to court) so what the OP has been provided with may be the briefest of summaries of what the officer says happened.
I am not qualified to give legal advice in the UK. While I will do my best to help you, you should not rely on my advice as if it was given by a lawyer qualified in the UK.

Re: NIP received for driving without due care and attention
« Reply #25 on: »

.......this has boiled my blood and has become a point of principal


Sounds expensive.
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Re: NIP received for driving without due care and attention
« Reply #26 on: »
I didn't think you could make a subject access request in respect of prospective criminal proceedings?  (If you think about it it's fairly obvious why)

Where in Norfolk did this alleged offence occur?  (I live there so I'm curious what stretch of road it is)

I suppose you will just have to wait until you here back from them.  But I suspect that before they reply you will have passed the deadline for accepting a course or a fixed penalty and points.  You will probably have to decide on a course of action before you get theri reply - if they reply at all.

That's what was advised so I've followed the suggestion...

That all said, I thought about what you said about the response from the police probably not coming before the deadline, meaning I'll incur court costs unless I choose the course or fixed penalty and am going to opt for the course (begrudgingly) and I'll be fitting dash cams imminently.

This all took place somewhere around the Orwell Bridge in Ipswich (I know the correspondence says Norwich but it's actually Norfolk and Suffolk constabulary Central Ticket Office who is the point of contact.

Re: NIP received for driving without due care and attention
« Reply #27 on: »
Quote
"...and am going to opt for the course"

I think that's a wise decision. It may make your blood boil but it will almost certainly save you a shedload of cash.

I am not at all convinced that the police will enter into any further discussion with you over this. They have no reason to.

The advice from the "chatbot" to raise an SAR is incorrect. You can raise one but, as above, the police are not obliged to comply with such a request if it involves potential criminal proceedings.

Thanks for letting us know what you have decided.

Re: NIP received for driving without due care and attention
« Reply #28 on: »
My first thought, was the police vehicle hogging the middle lane. My second thought, was probably not because you moved back into the second lane because there was another vehicle in lane 1, which means the police vehicle had the right to be in that lane, as he was presumably overtaking a vehicle in lane 1.

Unfortunately, even if the police vehicle is in the wrong, it is not a get out for yourself. However, what I have said may refresh your memory as to what happended.

I would think very seriously about what you are going to do. Be totally honest to yourself and you will come up with the right decision

Re: NIP received for driving without due care and attention
« Reply #29 on: »
I was about to post this yesterday but had a problem with my internet.

There is something that doesn’t sit right with me.

The O/P says he would have been driving a caravan and I presume the road was either a dual carriageway or a motorway.  In either case there are speed limits which I believe is 60MPH.

Unless the police car was driving very slowly, he’d have to do some speed to approach him very fast.

What would be the reason the police would refuse to show any dash cam evidence, I know they’re not obliged to but it cant be that difficult or time consuming to send it.

For all we know it could have been a plate misread.

I understand that the O/P is going to take the course, My blood would be boiling as well. 

I’m getting the impression that Police can report just about anyone knowing that the chance of it getting to court are slim and its therefore win-win for the Police
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