3. NIP received for driving without due care and attention
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NIP received for driving without due care and attention
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Hi


I recently received a PCN for driving without due care and attention.


While in the past, I have inadvertently driven above the speed limit and received a PCN and have put my hands up to the offence, in this case I genuinely do not believe the claim by the police that I drove without due care and attention, therefore I don't accept the allegation.


I have sent back the form that asks if I was the driver of the vehicle at the time of the alleged offence to confirm that I was.


Subsequently, I received a letter giving me three options:


Attend a "driver awareness"course
Pay a fine of £100 and accept 3 points on my licence
Appeal the allegation through the magistrates court


Before I respond to this letter, making my choice, I would like to see video evidence of the alleged offence as I've not been provided anything (unlike with speeding offences where you're given a link to view the photo that the camera captured).


What is the best course of action to take in this instance? I don't want to accept liability for something I don't think I've done and certainly not without proof.


I also don't want to appeal this through court without having proof provided prior to the appeal.


Am I entitled to evidence before I make my decision to take this to appeal?


Thanks in advance.
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Re: NIP received for driving without due care and attention
« Reply #1 on: »
Quote from: Dr Tripwire on June 27, 2025, 07:54:01 am


Am I entitled to evidence before I make my decision to take this to appeal?


Short answer, no. You can ask, but the police are not obliged to provide evidence at this stage, and probably won't.

BTW you won't be "taking it to appeal": there's nothing to appeal against (yet). You'll be taking it to trial.
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Re: NIP received for driving without due care and attention
« Reply #2 on: »
The only sure way to be provided with evidence is to opt for a court hearing. Then you will be provided with the evidence the police intend to rely on to convict you. The police have no obligation to provide any evidence if you want to accept one of the other two options, and usually won't. You can ask them if they will give you an idea of what you are said to have done, but that's about it.

I don't know whether the police really have used the term "appeal" but at present you have nothing to appeal against. If you opt for court you can either plead guilty (if you accept their evidence) or not guilty (and face a trial).

Even if you plead guilty in court, the cost will be around three times (as a minimum) the cost of either the course or fixed penalty. If you are found guilty following a trial you will see no change out of £1,000.

Have you any idea what this might be about?

As an aside, PCNs are not used for speeding or careless driving offences.
« Last Edit: June 27, 2025, 09:07:41 am by NewJudge »
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Re: NIP received for driving without due care and attention
« Reply #3 on: »
Quote from: 666 on June 27, 2025, 08:58:59 am
Quote from: Dr Tripwire on June 27, 2025, 07:54:01 am


Am I entitled to evidence before I make my decision to take this to appeal?


Short answer, no. You can ask, but the police are not obliged to provide evidence at this stage, and probably won't.

BTW you won't be "taking it to appeal": there's nothing to appeal against (yet). You'll be taking it to trial.

Hi thanks for your reply - apologies, yes I meant taking it to trial.

What doesn't make sense to me is that in order for me to admit anything, I need to see proof of the allegation because as it stands, I truly do not recall anything like what has been alleged happening.

I understand that if I were to accept one of the first two options, there would be no need to see evidence of the offence taking place but surely it is a reasonable request to ask for evidence before I do so?
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Re: NIP received for driving without due care and attention
« Reply #4 on: »
Quote from: Dr Tripwire on June 27, 2025, 09:26:43 am
Quote from: 666 on June 27, 2025, 08:58:59 am
Quote from: Dr Tripwire on June 27, 2025, 07:54:01 am


Am I entitled to evidence before I make my decision to take this to appeal?


Short answer, no. You can ask, but the police are not obliged to provide evidence at this stage, and probably won't.

BTW you won't be "taking it to appeal": there's nothing to appeal against (yet). You'll be taking it to trial.

Hi thanks for your reply - apologies, yes I meant taking it to trial.

What doesn't make sense to me is that in order for me to admit anything, I need to see proof of the allegation because as it stands, I truly do not recall anything like what has been alleged happening.

I understand that if I were to accept one of the first two options, there would be no need to see evidence of the offence taking place but surely it is a reasonable request to ask for evidence before I do so?

So far as "reasonable" is concerned, we don't make the laws! FWIW, the whole point of the fixed penalty system is to dispose of offences without either side incurring the hassle and expense of a court hearing. It's not designed to accommodate enquiries, discussions, arguments etc.

As NewJudge has suggested "you can ask them if they will give you an idea of what you are said to have done, but that's about it.", so a polite phone call along those lines may help.
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Re: NIP received for driving without due care and attention
« Reply #5 on: »
Quote from: NewJudge on June 27, 2025, 09:03:09 am
The only sure way to be provided with evidence is to opt for a court hearing. Then you will be provided with the evidence the police intend to rely on to convict you. The police have no obligation to provide any evidence if you want to accept one of the other two options, and usually won't. You can ask them if they will give you an idea of what you are said to have done, but that's about it.

I don't know whether the police really have used the term "appeal" but at present you have nothing to appeal against. If you opt for court you can either plead guilty (if you accept their evidence) or not guilty (and face a trial).

Even if you plead guilty in court, the cost will be around three times (as a minimum) the cost of either the course or fixed penalty. If you are found guilty following a trial you will see no change out of £1,000.

Have you any idea what this might be about?

As an aside, PCNs are not used for speeding or careless driving offences.

Thanks - I understand that there would be no need for evidence of the alleged offence if I am admitting to it - it seems to me that I am being asked to pay for something that I don't think I did and that the only way I can see evidence of the alleged offence is to take my case to trial (not appeal - apologies), during which time I will have forgone the right to accept the allegation and will then be faced with court costs. It seems to me that I am being held over a barrel!

With regard to the information I have been provided so far, this is the redacted version -

With reference to the enclosed Notice of Intended Prosecution/s. 172, a Police Officer has determined that the offence of Drive a mechanically propelled vehicle on a road/ in a public place without due care and attention has been evidenced.

In this case, the vehicle displaying registration mark ###### was found to fast approach a police vehicle travelling in Lane 2. When very close to the rear of the police vehicle, the subject vehicle then moved into Lane 1 to undertake, before quickly cutting back into Lane 2 without leaving a safe distance between themselves and the police vehicle.

Additional information - I was in a campervan which I don't drive any faster than 60mph where permitted, I had my dog asleep by my side and had left home with ample time to get to my destination - the offence described just doesn't sound like something I would have done, especially as I am aware of the stopping abilities of my 3 ton vehicle and I would assume that the vehicle in question was an unmarked police car.
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Re: NIP received for driving without due care and attention
« Reply #6 on: »
Quote
it seems to me that I am being asked to pay for something that I don't think I did and that the only way I can see evidence of the alleged offence is to take my case to trial

You don' have to take it to trial. If you see the evidence and accept he allegation, you can plead guilty. But by then the option of a course or fixed penalty will no longer be available. The evidence is unlikely to be much more than a statement from the officer explaining what you have summarised.

It seems they've told you what you have allegedly done. The ball is in your court. You either accept any offer they may make or have the matter dealt with in court.
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Re: NIP received for driving without due care and attention
« Reply #7 on: »
I guess the question is, regardless of whether you felt it was safe or non aggressive did you move into lane 1 to undertake a vehicle and then move back into lane 2 in front of them? The line for DWDCA is fairly easy to cross and it will be the word of an officer against yours.
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Re: NIP received for driving without due care and attention
« Reply #8 on: »
Quote from: BertB on June 27, 2025, 01:36:23 pm
I guess the question is, regardless of whether you felt it was safe or non aggressive did you move into lane 1 to undertake a vehicle and then move back into lane 2 in front of them? The line for DWDCA is fairly easy to cross and it will be the word of an officer against yours.

If you were to ask me if I did it, my answer is that to the best of my recollection I didn't do it. Hence wanting to see some form of evidence - the fact that the police cannot prosecute without evidence would suggest that they have dashcam footage they can provide.
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Re: NIP received for driving without due care and attention
« Reply #9 on: »
Quote from: Dr Tripwire on June 27, 2025, 10:00:45 am



...In this case, the vehicle displaying registration mark ###### was found to fast approach a police vehicle travelling in Lane 2. When very close to the rear of the police vehicle, the subject vehicle then moved into Lane 1 to undertake, before quickly cutting back into Lane 2 without leaving a safe distance between themselves and the police vehicle.

Additional information - I was in a campervan which I don't drive any faster than 60mph where permitted, I had my dog asleep by my side and had left home with ample time to get to my destination - the offence described just doesn't sound like something I would have done, especially as I am aware of the stopping abilities of my 3 ton vehicle and I would assume that the vehicle in question was an unmarked police car.

Does this sound like something you would have done?

If you are convinced that you would never drive like that you might want to consider 'phoning them and politely asking what evidence they have.  If they have photographic or video evidence you could ask them if they could confirm whether the vehicle matches your camper van.  It could be a mis-read number plate or clone.  Or it might be your camper van.

[Edit:  As others have already explained you aren't entitled to see any evidence at this stage, but that doesn't stop you asking if they could help you]

If there is no video or photographic evidence it will be your word against one or two police officers.

Before you 'phone them see what others here advise.  There is a risk that if you do 'phone them they will interpret it as a challenge against the allegation and you'll end up at trial anyway.
« Last Edit: June 27, 2025, 02:17:17 pm by ManxTom »
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Re: NIP received for driving without due care and attention
« Reply #10 on: »
Quote from: NewJudge on June 27, 2025, 01:29:51 pm
Quote
it seems to me that I am being asked to pay for something that I don't think I did and that the only way I can see evidence of the alleged offence is to take my case to trial

You don' have to take it to trial. If you see the evidence and accept he allegation, you can plead guilty. But by then the option of a course or fixed penalty will no longer be available. The evidence is unlikely to be much more than a statement from the officer explaining what you have summarised.

It seems they've told you what you have allegedly done. The ball is in your court. You either accept any offer they may make or have the matter dealt with in court.

Is an officer's written statement of events considered as adequate evidence for a driving offence? It would be surprising to hear that this is all that it takes, given that in this day and age, police vehicles will most certainly have dashcams fitted and could provide video evidence.
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Re: NIP received for driving without due care and attention
« Reply #11 on: »
Quote from: disgruntchelt on June 27, 2025, 02:17:12 pm
Quote from: andy_foster on June 27, 2025, 01:37:52 pm
Quote from: disgruntchelt on June 27, 2025, 12:32:32 pm
If you freely admit you would routinely undertake a vehicle travelling slower than you, you probably did it.

Can you point out where the OP freely admitted to routinely undertaking other vehicles? I seem to have missed that bit.

“the offence described just doesn't sound like something I would have done, especially as I am aware of the stopping abilities of my 3 ton vehicle and I would assume that the vehicle in question was an unmarked police car.”

Maybe freely admit is a bit of a stretch but the op didn’t say they didn’t undertake. I read this as the OP saying it must have been an unmarked car as they would remember undertaking a police car and due to the size of their vehicle they wouldn’t leave it too late ti change lanes.

Of course they could have been saying they  never undertake as they always drive as if every other vehicle on the road is an unmarked cop car.

Either way unless the OP now thinks it’s a case of mistaken identity that they can clear up before it gets to court (ie it wasn’t their van at that location at that time) it will probably be cheaper to do the course.

I think you're making a few too many assumptions here - my post is not about admitting or denying any offence - it's about the possibilities of getting what I would call "Proper evidence" - not just a vague 2 sentence explanation that doesn't provide enough information.

My remark about it being an unmarked police car simply means that had I approached a marked police vehicle at speed, I would have very clearly seen it and remembered doing it - more to the point, if anyone decides to approach a marked police vehicle from the rear (or otherwise) at speed, they deserve what they get.

Also there's no mention of mistaken identity in my post???

To reiterate, my post is not about me being guilty or innocent - I have enough of a moral grounding to admit my wrongdoings if that is indeed the case - at this moment, I do not consider that what little evidence has been provided is enough to verify that the offence took place and would like more.

It may have been a case of me driving as they have claimed, I find it hard to believe but maybe I did commit the offence that they have stated but for whatever reason, I have no recollection of it. If I am provided further evidence (video evidence) that clearly shows me driving without due care and attention, I won't be making any efforts to try and convince anyone otherwise - however I am not willing to pay a fine, receive penalty points etc on the basis of the information I have so far.
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Re: NIP received for driving without due care and attention
« Reply #12 on: »
Quote from: Dr Tripwire on June 27, 2025, 02:24:35 pm

Is an officer's written statement of events considered as adequate evidence for a driving offence? It would be surprising to hear that this is all that it takes, given that in this day and age, police vehicles will most certainly have dashcams fitted and could provide video evidence.
If you wish to challenge the officer's statement, he can be cross-examined in court. You can give your version of events. The court then decides.

However, that may not arise. As you say, they may well have video.
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Re: NIP received for driving without due care and attention
« Reply #13 on: »
Quote
Is an officer's written statement of events considered as adequate evidence for a driving offence?

Yes. Whether it is sufficient so that he Magistrates can be sure that the offence was committed is for them to decide.

You can debate this all you like but the truth of the matter is that you will not be provided with any formal evidence unless the matter goes to court. Then you will be provided with the evidence the police intend to rely on to convict you. If they do not intend to rely on video evidence (assuming there is any, which is by no means a given) it will not be provided.
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Re: NIP received for driving without due care and attention
« Reply #14 on: »
Quote from: ManxTom on June 27, 2025, 02:13:36 pm
Quote from: Dr Tripwire on June 27, 2025, 10:00:45 am



...In this case, the vehicle displaying registration mark ###### was found to fast approach a police vehicle travelling in Lane 2. When very close to the rear of the police vehicle, the subject vehicle then moved into Lane 1 to undertake, before quickly cutting back into Lane 2 without leaving a safe distance between themselves and the police vehicle.

Additional information - I was in a campervan which I don't drive any faster than 60mph where permitted, I had my dog asleep by my side and had left home with ample time to get to my destination - the offence described just doesn't sound like something I would have done, especially as I am aware of the stopping abilities of my 3 ton vehicle and I would assume that the vehicle in question was an unmarked police car.

Does this sound like something you would have done?

If you are convinced that you would never drive like that you might want to consider 'phoning them and politely asking what evidence they have.  If they have photographic or video evidence you could ask them if they could confirm whether the vehicle matches your camper van.  It could be a mis-read number plate or clone.  Or it might be your camper van.

[Edit:  As others have already explained you aren't entitled to see any evidence at this stage, but that doesn't stop you asking if they could help you]

If there is no video or photographic evidence it will be your word against one or two police officers.

Before you 'phone them see what others here advise.  There is a risk that if you do 'phone them they will interpret it as a challenge against the allegation and you'll end up at trial anyway.

I would be the first to admit it if there was a chance of me doing this - the only thing that comes to mind is that either the vehicle in question moved into lane 2 without seeing that I was already in lane 2 and travelling faster than it and as a result I moved into lane 1 - what is not clear from the information provided is whether I did actually undertake or not In this case, the vehicle displaying registration mark ###### was found to fast approach a police vehicle travelling in Lane 2. When very close to the rear of the police vehicle, the subject vehicle then moved into Lane 1 to undertake, before quickly cutting back into Lane 2 without leaving a safe distance between themselves and the police vehicle..

I genuinely don't recall this supposed event - if it happened, I haven't remembered it happening and would accept that fault and whatever penalty is applied.
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