3. NIP - 25mph on a 20 - Location 1203 East Smithfield nr Cartwright st
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NIP - 25mph on a 20 - Location 1203 East Smithfield nr Cartwright st
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NIP - 25mph on a 20 - Location A1203 East Smithfield nr Cartwright st - Met Police

This road is by Tower of London heading east. It's usually really busy. On the 21/05/2023 this offence was recorded. I got a letter through the post this week dated 18/06/2024. Personally I think it's extremely harsh as like I said you can barely do 10/15 mph on this road due to Central London traffic. That day however must have been less busy and I didn't notice doing 25mph. Realistically the road is big and you would expect it to be a 30.

I already have 3 points on my license from doing 55mph on a 50 by Lakeside Thurrock on the A13 back in Nov 2022. This was with Essex Police though and i hear they're harsh as they don't have much to do when it comes to speed traffic enforcement.

Any help in this current matter would be most appreciated as I really don't want further points on my license. Please let me know if I need to add any further information.
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Re: NIP - 25mph on a 20 - Location 1203 East Smithfield nr Cartwright st
« Reply #1 on: »
Do you still have the NIP for the 55 in a 50? It’s below the enforcement threshold of 57. Were you not offered a course for it?
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Re: NIP - 25mph on a 20 - Location 1203 East Smithfield nr Cartwright st
« Reply #2 on: »
Have you done a course within the last 3 years, if not you should be offered one?
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Re: NIP - 25mph on a 20 - Location 1203 East Smithfield nr Cartwright st
« Reply #3 on: »
Quote from: Southpaw82 on June 27, 2024, 06:12:01 pm
Do you still have the NIP for the 55 in a 50? It’s below the enforcement threshold of 57. Were you not offered a course for it?

I'm not sure if i have the NIP but i dug through my photos and i have a picture of it. Looking at the picture it was actually a 57 on a 50, not 55. So that's what got me the 3 points and the fine. I had done a course in March 2021, so when i got this ticket (Jan 2023) offence - from Nov 22, it was straight points.
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Re: NIP - 25mph on a 20 - Location 1203 East Smithfield nr Cartwright st
« Reply #4 on: »
Quote from: Irksome on June 27, 2024, 06:23:09 pm
Have you done a course within the last 3 years, if not you should be offered one?

Hey, thanks for your response. The last time i did a course was in March 2021. So that means i should get another course then as its been over 3 years?

Also, there has been an update since i posted the original message. Yesterday i got another speeding ticket through the post - this was one i was expecting but hoping i didnt receive. I did 88mph on a 70 at the M6 j3-j2 southbound - Warwickshire Police. It was 11pm and i was talking to my cousin and didnt realise the speed as the motorway was extremely quiet at this point. Just to be clear, i'm not a regular speeder, i have just found myself in an unlucky situation receiving two tickets in the space of two weeks - when it rains...it pours!

My question is, would it be worth me doing the course for the 88 on a 70 if im eligible for it. And get the points for the 25 on a 20 instead? This is as a last resort ofcourse or do i have anything i can appeal against for any of these tickets?

I'm very grateful for the help and advice by the way!
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Re: NIP - 25mph on a 20 - Location 1203 East Smithfield nr Cartwright st
« Reply #5 on: »
3 points is 3 points, I can’t see why it would matter which of the offences you get them for.
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Re: NIP - 25mph on a 20 - Location 1203 East Smithfield nr Cartwright st
« Reply #6 on: »
Quote from: Sizzle89 on June 29, 2024, 03:42:40 pm
My question is, would it be worth me doing the course for the 88 on a 70 if im eligible for it. And get the points for the 25 on a 20 instead?

You won't be offered a course for 88 in a 70 (up to 10% +9mph over the limit).
A fixed penalty is a fixed penalty, regardless of the limit. Only difference is the DVLA endorsement code (SP30 for ordinary roads, SP50 for motorways, assuming it was a car).
N.B. When you receive the offers of course and fixed penalty, read them carefully.

Quote
This is as a last resort ofcourse or do i have anything i can appeal against for any of these tickets?

Ignoring the resident pedants' cries of "there is nothing to appeal as you have not been convicted yet", nothing that you have told us so far suggests a viable defence.
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Re: NIP - 25mph on a 20 - Location 1203 East Smithfield nr Cartwright st
« Reply #7 on: »
Quote from: andy_foster on June 29, 2024, 04:37:01 pm
Quote from: Sizzle89 on June 29, 2024, 03:42:40 pm
My question is, would it be worth me doing the course for the 88 on a 70 if im eligible for it. And get the points for the 25 on a 20 instead?

You won't be offered a course for 88 in a 70 (up to 10% +9mph over the limit).
A fixed penalty is a fixed penalty, regardless of the limit. Only difference is the DVLA endorsement code (SP30 for ordinary roads, SP50 for motorways, assuming it was a car).
N.B. When you receive the offers of course and fixed penalty, read them carefully.

Quote
This is as a last resort ofcourse or do i have anything i can appeal against for any of these tickets?

Ignoring the resident pedants' cries of "there is nothing to appeal as you have not been convicted yet", nothing that you have told us so far suggests a viable defence.

So do you suggest i just take both on the chin and say i was the driver, with nothing to appeal?
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Re: NIP - 25mph on a 20 - Location 1203 East Smithfield nr Cartwright st
« Reply #8 on: »
Quote from: Sizzle89 on July 01, 2024, 03:20:05 pm
So do you suggest i just take both on the chin and say i was the driver, with nothing to appeal?
You have to say you were the driver regardless, only the driver can defend the allegation made, so you would need to be identified as that entity even if you decided to defend it.

Nothing you have said indicates a viable defence and it is generally considered foolhardy to allow the matter to go to court (by not taking up an out of court settlement) - unless you are so rich money doesn't matter - without a viable defence.  There may be defences relating to the traffic order (that creates the limit) or signage (that notifies the driver of the limit set by that order) but you haven't mentioned that.
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Re: NIP - 25mph on a 20 - Location 1203 East Smithfield nr Cartwright st
« Reply #9 on: »
Quote from: The Rookie on July 01, 2024, 03:36:56 pm
Quote from: Sizzle89 on July 01, 2024, 03:20:05 pm
So do you suggest i just take both on the chin and say i was the driver, with nothing to appeal?
You have to say you were the driver regardless, only the driver can defend the allegation made, so you would need to be identified as that entity even if you decided to defend it.

Nothing you have said indicates a viable defence and it is generally considered foolhardy to allow the matter to go to court (by not taking up an out of court settlement) - unless you are so rich money doesn't matter - without a viable defence.  There may be defences relating to the traffic order (that creates the limit) or signage (that notifies the driver of the limit set by that order) but you haven't mentioned that.

Thanks Rookie, so i will go ahead and respond saying i was the driver for both. With regards to the 88 on the 70 on M6, i dont really have a defence for that if im honest.

But i feel the 25 on the 20mph is really harsh. That road is usually standstill traffic near Tower of London especially at the time of the incident 17:30. But that day it must have been clearer which allowed me to do 25 not noticing the speed camera. Keep in mind the road is big and not a small narrow one so this can naturally be done. Anything to look into that might allow me to have a defence for this one?
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Re: NIP - 25mph on a 20 - Location 1203 East Smithfield nr Cartwright st
« Reply #10 on: »
Quote from: Sizzle89 on July 01, 2024, 04:05:49 pm
But i feel the 25 on the 20mph is really harsh.

 Anything to look into that might allow me to have a defence for this one?
Unfortunately what you feel doesn't impact the law, you need to get used to the 'new normal'.

Well signage and TRO as mentioned!  You can ask for a copy of the TRO from the relevant highway authority, probably TFL for that one,. not sure.
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Re: NIP - 25mph on a 20 - Location 1203 East Smithfield nr Cartwright st
« Reply #11 on: »
So looking at the supporting evidence they've provided for the 25mph on the 20. It was heavy rain that day, and i didnt notice the speed markers or even the sign. To be honest the camera barely picks up the reg and markings too. Do i have any grounds, are there any steps i can take to appeal?
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Re: NIP - 25mph on a 20 - Location 1203 East Smithfield nr Cartwright st
« Reply #12 on: »
You have no option to appeal at this point, you can only appeal a conviction or sentence after being convicted by a court.

You either accept the offer (course or fixed penalty) or take it to court and plead not guilty (pleading guilty would be pointless as you would have to pay a much higher fine and costs). You would only want to take it to court if you have a viable defence and nothing you have said suggests you have. No seeing the markings or signs doesn't help.
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Re: NIP - 25mph on a 20 - Location 1203 East Smithfield nr Cartwright st
« Reply #13 on: »
Quote from: Sizzle89 on July 03, 2024, 05:56:17 pm
It was heavy rain that day, and i didnt notice the speed markers or even the sign.
Simply put, no.  It also fails the 'common sense test' as it's a bit 'silly' to suggest that if it's raining that heavily its OK to exceed the speed limit compared to when its dry with shorter stopping distances etc!
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Re: NIP - 25mph on a 20 - Location 1203 East Smithfield nr Cartwright st
« Reply #14 on: »
Quote from: The Rookie on July 04, 2024, 08:10:54 am
Quote from: Sizzle89 on July 03, 2024, 05:56:17 pm
It was heavy rain that day, and i didnt notice the speed markers or even the sign.
Simply put, no.  It also fails the 'common sense test' as it's a bit 'silly' to suggest that if it's raining that heavily its OK to exceed the speed limit compared to when its dry with shorter stopping distances etc!

Well no, the point being the signs or markings there were not clear due to the heavy rain.

I now look out for that camera as i'm aware of it since the ticket. Even just yesterday i saw someone get flashed, they must have been doing 24 on that road based on my speed. It's right by tower hill station i think it makes them a lot of money.
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