Author Topic: Failure to notify and driving ban appeal  (Read 1291 times)

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NewJudge

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Re: Failure to notify and driving ban appeal
« Reply #30 on: September 22, 2024, 10:46:18 am »
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Everywhere I’ve read there is no definite on when the 6 months timescales start and end.
Does it start with the first s172 request +29 days

The offence is committed 28 days after the s172 request for driver's details is served. This is 2 working days after it was posted (unless the contrary is proved). So they have six months from that date to begin proceedings.

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Or depending on how many letters they send out they can pick at date off one of them?

No they can't do that. There was a case in the Scottish High Court where (IIRC) the police had issued a written s172 request to the keeper of a vehicle and, some time later, the keeper was visited by the police the make the same enquiry. They issued proceedings under s172 which was within six months of the personal visit, but outside six months from the date of written request.

The court ruled that, providing there was no reason to make a subsequent request (because, for example, the police had been given a wrong address for the keeper) the first request determines the date by which proceedings must be taken.

Whilst Scottish rulings are not binding on courts in E&W (and vice versa) it would be persuasive because it would mean the police could circumvent the six month rule potentially indefinitely by making repeated requests.

So you actually have details of the NIP and s172 request which was sent to you including when was it dated?

Just234

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Re: Failure to notify and driving ban appeal
« Reply #31 on: September 22, 2024, 03:10:00 pm »
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The court ruled that, providing there was no reason to make a subsequent request (because, for example, the police had been given a wrong address for the keeper) the first request determines the date by which proceedings must be taken.

Quote
So you actually have details of the NIP and s172 request which was sent to you including when was it dated?


Perfect
I am the registered keeper and the bundle of paperwork I’ve been provided by the court has my correct address and has the date of the NIP sent on the 12/04/2023

When you say proceedings must begin - I have a document ‘postal requisition’ which is dated 11/12/2023
Then I have a SJPN with a postal date of 16/01/2024 and written on there underneath the FtF is charge date of 10/01/2024

So what date and what document means ‘proceedings have begun’





andy_foster

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Re: Failure to notify and driving ban appeal
« Reply #32 on: September 22, 2024, 03:24:08 pm »
Proceedings must be instigated within 6 months of the alleged offence. This is done when the necessary documents were issued. They either were or they weren't.

You appear to have at least 2 conflicting sets of documents and dates. Which is unusual. If these are the only such documents that were issued, then it would appear to be out of time. As there are already seemingly conflicting documents and dates, it would not be prudent to rule out earlier documents having been issued in time.

You can put the prosecution to proof that the charge was instigated in time, but other than contacting them and asking nicely, there is no right to see the evidence in advance.
I am responsible for the accuracy of the information I post, not your ability to comprehend it.

Just234

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Re: Failure to notify and driving ban appeal
« Reply #33 on: September 22, 2024, 04:19:19 pm »
Thankyou

When you say
‘This is done when the necessary documents were issued.’
What are the necessary documents?

Please can you expand on which documents and dates you see as conflicting.

And you say ‘contact the prosecution’
Are you saying I contact the court prior to completing the online form I’ve been instructed to do or is this something I ask later down the line.


andy_foster

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I am responsible for the accuracy of the information I post, not your ability to comprehend it.

Just234

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Re: Failure to notify and driving ban appeal
« Reply #35 on: September 22, 2024, 07:52:59 pm »
https://www.legislation.gov.uk/id/ukpga/1980/43


That link isn’t really that helpful unfortunately as it in no way relates to what I was trying to get you to explain from your words in your post.
If you do have the time please can you let me know what is the necessary paperwork that must be issued within 6 months of the alleged offence.

Or if anyone else can help with that question it would be much appreciated.

Southpaw82

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Re: Failure to notify and driving ban appeal
« Reply #36 on: September 22, 2024, 08:27:51 pm »
The written charge.

Just234

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Re: Failure to notify and driving ban appeal
« Reply #37 on: September 23, 2024, 08:41:48 am »
The written charge.


Should I have received a ‘written charge’ in the post?
I’m just trying to work out which document a written charge is. And to clarify which date I need to be aware of.
 I have no document with the name ‘written charge’ on it. I have a ‘police report:section s172 offence’ and a postal requisition. Is either of them the written charge? Both of these are dated 11/12/2023

On the police report within the witness statement section it states
‘on 22/11/2023 I checked the FPU system ….. absence of record or reply no reply recieved’
‘A requisition was issued.’

But that requisition is not dated until 11/12/2023


And to confuse me even more it says in the SJPN dated 16/01/2024 (which I gather is not the ‘written charge’) it says charge date is 10/01/2024

Southpaw82

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Re: Failure to notify and driving ban appeal
« Reply #38 on: September 23, 2024, 11:12:58 am »
It sounds like the written charge (which will be something like “on [date] you failed to furnish the details of the driver of vehicle [VRM] contrary to s 172 etc”. The charge date seems to be 10/01/24.
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ManxTom

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Re: Failure to notify and driving ban appeal
« Reply #39 on: September 23, 2024, 02:07:00 pm »
Perfect
I am the registered keeper and the bundle of paperwork I’ve been provided by the court has my correct address and has the date of the NIP sent on the 12/04/2023

When you say proceedings must begin - I have a document ‘postal requisition’ which is dated 11/12/2023
Then I have a SJPN with a postal date of 16/01/2024 and written on there underneath the FtF is charge date of 10/01/2024

So what date and what document means ‘proceedings have begun’

OK - I didn't realise you had previously mentioned that you already had a copy of the NIP you never received originally - I thought you were using 12 April 2023 as the date you assumed it had been sent, not that you knew that that was when it was sent.  My mistake.  Apologies.

If you are confirming that you are the RK and that your NIP was sent to you at your correct address on 12 April 2023, then I think Andy Foster has already answered your question.

ie the offence of failing to identify would have been committed on or around 14 May 2023.  So the police would have had until 6 months later - on or around 14 November 2023 - in which to charge you with failing to identify.  If they only just got round even to checking whether you had replied or not on 22 November 2023, they would seem on the face of it to be out of time.  Even more so if the date you have been given for the "written charge" is 10 January 2024 - nine months after the date of the NIP that was sent to you, so almost two whole months late.

But see what others say.  I'd have thought it quite unusual for the police to charge someone so late, but who knows...?


(My comments assume the info and dates you have provided are accurate.  I note that you did say in the previous Reply #14 that "I'm sorry I don’t know how to word things properly and my memory/processing is not great. I keep having to read and re read and it’s confusing for me."  Somebody has already suggested that it might be a good idea to post up redacted copies of the NIP/172 and the SJPN you have received)
« Last Edit: September 23, 2024, 02:11:39 pm by ManxTom »
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NewJudge

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Re: Failure to notify and driving ban appeal
« Reply #40 on: September 23, 2024, 03:29:52 pm »
A possible explanation for a seemingly late prosecution is that the police may have issued a second s172 request (for whatever reason). If they have, the ruling in the Scottish case, which I mentioned in post #30, may come into play. It depends very much why the second s172 request was issued.

Unfortunately the full transcript of that ruling seems to have disappeared from the Scottish Courts' "Opinions" list. I do know the case was Procurator Fiscal, Glasgow v. William Gordon Jackson [2010] HCJAC 96 because I found it mentioned here:

http://www.euanadowadvocate.co.uk/item/procurator-fiscal-glasgow-v-william-gordon-jackson-2010-hcjac-96.html

Pinkie Pie

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Re: Failure to notify and driving ban appeal
« Reply #41 on: September 23, 2024, 07:56:58 pm »
A possible explanation for a seemingly late prosecution is that the police may have issued a second s172 request (for whatever reason). If they have, the ruling in the Scottish case, which I mentioned in post #30, may come into play. It depends very much why the second s172 request was issued.

Unfortunately the full transcript of that ruling seems to have disappeared from the Scottish Courts' "Opinions" list. I do know the case was Procurator Fiscal, Glasgow v. William Gordon Jackson [2010] HCJAC 96 because I found it mentioned here:

http://www.euanadowadvocate.co.uk/item/procurator-fiscal-glasgow-v-william-gordon-jackson-2010-hcjac-96.html

It is available on BAILII at https://www.bailii.org/scot/cases/ScotHC/2010/2010HCJAC96.html

NewJudge

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Re: Failure to notify and driving ban appeal
« Reply #42 on: September 24, 2024, 08:10:01 am »
It is available on BAILII at https://www.bailii.org/scot/cases/ScotHC/2010/2010HCJAC96.html
[/quote]

Thanks Pinkie.

Just234

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Re: Failure to notify and driving ban appeal
« Reply #43 on: September 24, 2024, 11:00:51 am »
Many thanks that info is much appreciated