Author Topic: Failure to notify and driving ban appeal  (Read 1289 times)

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Southpaw82

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Re: Failure to notify and driving ban appeal
« Reply #15 on: September 20, 2024, 09:40:03 pm »
For an offence committed on 29/08/23 they have until the following February to commence pro, so they were well in time in January.

NewJudge

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Re: Failure to notify and driving ban appeal
« Reply #16 on: September 20, 2024, 10:05:48 pm »
What is the date of the s172 request?

Gilan02

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Re: Failure to notify and driving ban appeal
« Reply #17 on: September 21, 2024, 10:26:47 am »
The failure to provide drivers details being 4 months later suggests to me either the address on the V5c is wrong or you are not the registered keeper, the latter may be useful to you.

Just234

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Re: Failure to notify and driving ban appeal
« Reply #18 on: September 21, 2024, 02:08:52 pm »
The S172 request for information was sent 12/04/23

Just234

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Re: Failure to notify and driving ban appeal
« Reply #19 on: September 21, 2024, 02:20:15 pm »
For an offence committed on 29/08/23 they have until the following February to commence pro, so they were well in time in January.

This is what I’m trying to work out - if I was caught speeding 04/23 then given 28 days to respond my failure to respond offence would be on the 29th day so 05/23

Why have they then recorded my failure to respond offence as 08/23 ?


Southpaw82

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Re: Failure to notify and driving ban appeal
« Reply #20 on: September 21, 2024, 02:39:07 pm »
When did you receive the s 172 notice? If you didn’t receive it, do you know when it was sent to you? Are you the registered keeper?

andy_foster

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Re: Failure to notify and driving ban appeal
« Reply #21 on: September 21, 2024, 02:42:12 pm »
An s. 172 offence is committed at the expiration of 28 days beginning with the date of service of the NIP (or notice requiring information under s. 172).

If the NIP was sent to you on 12/04/2023, it would be deemed served (unless the contrary is proven) on 14/04/2023 and the s. 172 offence committed on 11/05/2023.
I am responsible for the accuracy of the information I post, not your ability to comprehend it.

Just234

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Re: Failure to notify and driving ban appeal
« Reply #22 on: September 21, 2024, 05:34:03 pm »
Thankyou
So am I right in thinking that that then means the the offence being committed in May, the Postal requisition dated 11/12/23 is outside of the 6 month window?

andy_foster

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Re: Failure to notify and driving ban appeal
« Reply #23 on: September 21, 2024, 06:12:17 pm »
So, a postal requisition was issued on 11/12/2023 and a summons was issued on 16/01/2024, which was also a written charge.

And you are asking us if December is more than 6 months after May.

As I said previously, if you tell us what happened, we will tell you how the law applies. If you want to be told how the law applies so that you can work it out for yourself, the OU do law courses.
I am responsible for the accuracy of the information I post, not your ability to comprehend it.

ManxTom

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Re: Failure to notify and driving ban appeal
« Reply #24 on: September 21, 2024, 06:33:45 pm »
For an offence committed on 29/08/23 they have until the following February to commence pro, so they were well in time in January.

This is what I’m trying to work out - if I was caught speeding 04/23 then given 28 days to respond my failure to respond offence would be on the 29th day so 05/23

Why have they then recorded my failure to respond offence as 08/23 ?

You seem to be assuming that s172 request was sent to you immediately (or shortly) after the alleged speeding offence.  But
how do you know when your s172 request was sent to you if you never received it?

How do you know that your s172 request wasn't sent to you at the end of July?

Sorry if I've missed this from earlier in the thread, but are you the Registered Keeper with the DVLA, and if you are, is your address on the car's V5C correct?  If you aren't the Registered KeeperK, who is?

The s172 request issued to you that you never received might not be the first in the chain...


Edit:  To clarify further for you, the first NIP/s172 after a speeding offence has to be served on the Registered Keeper (RK) of the vehicle within 14 days of the offence.  The RK then has 28 days in which to identify the driver.

If your car is a company car or a lease car, you are almost certainly not the RK so the first NIP/s172 will not have been sent to you, but to the RK.  Depending on how many different people or companies there are between you and the RK, you may not receive your NIP/s172 request until several months after the original speeding offence if each person takes the full 28 days to reply. 

Do you see how, if you are not the RK, your failure to identify offence could be committed several months after the date of the speeding?

« Last Edit: September 21, 2024, 08:43:54 pm by ManxTom »

itsnotmwyouno

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Re: Failure to notify and driving ban appeal
« Reply #25 on: September 21, 2024, 11:34:42 pm »
The failure to furnish is also a far more serious offence with 6 points minimum penalty.  You basically have to decide whether you want to pursue the fail  to furnish which is possible but often fraught with difficulties, or following the stat dec and re prosecution of both offences, do a plea bargain to accept the speeding charge if the FtF is dropped.  They nearly always oblige. 
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roythebus

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Re: Failure to notify and driving ban appeal
« Reply #26 on: September 22, 2024, 08:00:55 am »
I hope the OP has taken note of Andy Foster's comment above about the driving ban. Ban means Ban. DO NOT drive until the ban has been lifted or you will be in deeper do-do if caught.
Bus driving since 1973. My advice, if you have a PSV licence, destroy it when you get to 65 or you'll be forever in demand.
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Just234

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Re: Failure to notify and driving ban appeal
« Reply #27 on: September 22, 2024, 09:29:29 am »
The failure to furnish is also a far more serious offence with 6 points minimum penalty.  You basically have to decide whether you want to pursue the fail  to furnish which is possible but often fraught with difficulties, or following the stat dec and re prosecution of both offences, do a plea bargain to accept the speeding charge if the FtF is dropped.  They nearly always oblige.

Thankyou

The SJPN has only the failure to furnish charge on it.
Not the speeding offence which it refers to.
Does that make any difference in the options you have outlined above?

The reason I was asking about the timescales is because I thought the speeding offence hasn’t been added because it is out of time.
If that is the case then there is question over the timescales for the FtF offence and whether that is also out of time.

Everywhere I’ve read there is no definite on when the 6 months timescales start and end.
Does it start with the first s172 request +29 days
Or depending on how many letters they send out they can pick at date off one of them?
It’s seems having read a few other instances that it’s normally the first - if I’ve been sent another letter and they’ve chosen that date to use isn’t that just them stretching the timescales in an effort to enable a charge saying that the speeding charge is out of time.

Then there is no info on where the 6 month timescale ends.
Is it that the SJPN has to be sent before the 6month deadline?

I know I’m probably clutching at straws but I do have solicitors letter regarding the mail going missing at the property dated around the same time period, so I do think I stand a good chance of arguing the not received.

ManxTom

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Re: Failure to notify and driving ban appeal
« Reply #28 on: September 22, 2024, 10:43:49 am »
... The reason I was asking about the timescales is because I thought the speeding offence hasn’t been added because it is out of time.
If that is the case then there is question over the timescales for the FtF offence and whether that is also out of time.

Everywhere I’ve read there is no definite on when the 6 months timescales start and end.
Does it start with the first s172 request +29 days
Or depending on how many letters they send out they can pick at date off one of them?
It’s seems having read a few other instances that it’s normally the first - if I’ve been sent another letter and they’ve chosen that date to use isn’t that just them stretching the timescales in an effort to enable a charge saying that the speeding charge is out of time.

Then there is no info on where the 6 month timescale ends.
Is it that the SJPN has to be sent before the 6month deadline? ...


I don't think you understood what I tried to explain yesterday evening...

Please answer this:  Are you the person recorded by the DVLA as being the Registered Keeper (RK) of the vehicle in question?  In other words, do you have the car's V5C document in your possession, and does it correctly record both your name and your address?

If you are the RK AND your address is correct then yes, it seems strange that you committed the failure to identify offence some 4 - 5 months after the original speeding offence.  If that is the case then it might be worth your while to find out from the police when the first NIP/s172 request was sent to you at your correct address.

If, however, you are not the RK (and that sounds quite likely) then the 4 - 5 month delay can be easily explained and doesn't give you a get out.

For example, let's assume that you aren't the RK and a finance company is.  The police will have to have sent out a NIP to the finance company within 14 days of the original speeding offence committed on 01 April 2023, and the finance company has 28 days in which to respond.  Lets assume the finance company names a car leasing company.  They in turn will get their own NIP/s172 request and have a further 28 days in which to respond naming the next person in the chain.  Let's assume the car leasing company names your employer (it's a company car).  Your employer gets their own NIP/s172 request and has a further 28 days in which to name you.  Let's assume the police then send you your own NIP/s172 request at the end of July 2023.  You don't get it and fail to respond.  As far as the police are concerned, you failed to identify the driver by the end of August 2023 and that's when you committed the offence.

That's just one possible example and one possible reason to explain the apparently long delay between the original speeding offence and the failure to identify offence.  Whether that particular example applies in your case we don't know as you haven't given enough detail.

So are you the RK, or aren't you?

To try to clear up your other queries:

1.  Yes, the speeding has timed out, so if you've only been charged with failure to identify and not with speeding, you can't really do a plea bargain because you have nothing to offer the prosecution.  You could try asking but it almost certainly won't be accepted.

2.  AIUI, for the purpose of committing the offence of failure to identify, it's 28 days from the first NIP/s172 served on you that counts, and as I've tried to explain to you above, the first NIP served on you could have been several months after the original speeding offence.  The police can't keep extending the 6 month deadline by reissuing requests to you.  (And - in any case - you don't even appear to know for sure when the first request for information was sent to you...  Perhaps you should try to find out?)

3.  No, the SJPN does not have to be sent to you before the 6 month deadline.  What needs to be done within 6 months is the issuing of the written charge which originates the SJPN.  The SJPN itself can be sent outsde 6 months so long as the written charge was within 6 months.

4.  I can't comment on whether your problems receiving post constitute a defence or not - with or without confirmation from your solicitor
« Last Edit: September 22, 2024, 10:49:57 am by ManxTom »

Southpaw82

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Re: Failure to notify and driving ban appeal
« Reply #29 on: September 22, 2024, 10:44:44 am »
All this reading you seem to be doing isn’t very effective.

AF has explained when a s 172 notice is presumed to have been served (subject to actual evidence to the contrary).

There is case law (albeit from Scotland) that says there is only one s 172 notice, which is the first one (to that person). So no, the police can’t seek to serve another to “stretch” the time limit.

The six months ends after six months.

Unless you can tell us when the s 172 notice addressed to you was deemed to be served nobody can tell you whether the prosecution is in time or not.

If speeding isn’t on the written charge then you generally can’t do a deal to plead guilty to it.
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