Author Topic: Worth taking an appeal to POPLA or taking the £20 fine?  (Read 142 times)

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Albamc

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Worth taking an appeal to POPLA or taking the £20 fine?
« on: January 11, 2025, 02:35:09 pm »
Hello,
I received a fine from my local leisure centre, which has changed its parking system since I last used it. I received a PCN from 'Civil Enforcement' which sounds very official... for £100, £60 within 14 days. I appealed. Here is the text of my appeal:

"I took my two children to the soft play at Hartham Leisure Centre on the 14th Dec. Previously, there has been no parking registration system in operation in the car park. I am unsure when one was introduced. Not only was I not aware there was a new system, the signage indicating there was one was clearly not visible (enough) to a busy parent trying to get his children into a Leisure Centre. I attach a bank statement showing that I was using the Leisure Centre that day (the date is the 16th as the 14th was a Saturday, so the transaction did not go through til the Monday.)
You will also see from the statement I went to Hartham yesterday (3/01/24.) This time I did notice much bigger signs for the parking and a request to register your vehicle that I am almost certain was not there on the 14th, though I may be wrong. When I enquired behind the desk about the new system, I was told I had to go past the security gate to register my details as that's where the machine is. As I am not a member, the machine was inaccessible without a member of staff letting me through. This seems a very poor system if you are expecting non-members to register - especially those using a soft play for their kids which means by definition they have other things on their minds!

Whilst I fully accept I did not register on the 14th, I hope that I can appeal this parking ticket as a) I genuinely had no idea there was a new system in operation, b) my family were clearly customers of the leisure centre at the time as my bank statement proves, c) the signage was not obvious enough to indicate there was a new system in operation and d) the machine on which to register your car is out of sight of the entrance behind a closed security door which is not open to the public.

I will of course register my car on every visit from now on, but on this occasion I hope I can be excused the PCN for the reasons stated above."
____________

I received the following reply today:

We refer to your recent correspondence.
We have carefully reviewed your appeal and/or evidence provided taking into consideration all the
points you have raised in relation to this Parking Charge Notice.
On this occasion, your appeal has been unsuccessful for the following reason:
We have no record of the above vehicle being registered to be exempt from the parking restrictions in
place on the day in question.
It is the responsibility of the driver to ensure they adhere to the parking terms.
There are many clear and visible signs displayed on the site advising drivers of the regulations in force
and we maintain a continuous log confirming that the signage remains in place.
It is therefore our position that the Parking Charge was validly issued because of the above detailed
breach of the terms and conditions set out on signs in the car park.You have now reached the end of
our internal appeals procedure.
You now have two choices:
1. Settle the debt at a reduced rate of £20.
2. If you are not satisfied with our decision, you may appeal to the Independent Appeals Service
(POPLA) via www.popla.co.uk
---------------

My question is very simple - I'd probably rather pay the £20 than go through all the hassle, but my feeling is if they've already reduced it to £20, they must feel they're on shaky ground. I refer particularly to the fact I did not see the signage (so it can't have been that clear) and very much to the fact the machine to register on is behind a security door in the building non-members do not have direct access to.

It seems especially irritating that the parking is free, so it would not have cost me anything to park even if I had realised I needed to register. Obviously I didn't, but I was hoping understandable human error, poor signage and absolutley no intention to avoid paying for parking might make a full appeal worthwhile.

If anyone could help suggest whether they think I have grounds for a successful appeal to POPLA I would be most grateful.

Alistair

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mickR

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Re: Worth taking an appeal to POPLA or taking the £20 fine?
« Reply #1 on: January 11, 2025, 08:30:16 pm »
£20 ???

Albamc

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Re: Worth taking an appeal to POPLA or taking the £20 fine?
« Reply #2 on: January 11, 2025, 11:50:18 pm »
As Tommy Cooper once said, it's not the principle Mick. It's the money.   

b789

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Re: Worth taking an appeal to POPLA or taking the £20 fine?
« Reply #3 on: January 12, 2025, 10:52:35 am »
Oh dear... I wish you'd come here before you submitted that terrible appeal. You are not dealing with some entity that has a fuzzy warm customer service ethos. You are dealing with ex-clamper scum who care only how much they can scam from you.

Here's one way to make a bit of money... I will give you £100 for every occurrence of the word "fine" you can show me in all the correspondence you have received. Of course, you won't find that word anywhere because you never received a "fine" of any sort.

If you don't mind paying some unregulated private parking company £20 because they have sent you a speculative invoice because the driver allegedly breached a contractual term on a sign, then that's up to you/ Do you always pay invoices from private companies, irrespective of whether you actually own the sum or not?

You can try POPLA. However, they will not take mitigation into account. You will need to rely on CEL's breaches of contract law and the IPC/BPA Private Parking Single Code of Practice (PPSCoP).

For example, you say that they recently changed the parking system. Do you know whether that change occurred within the last 4 months? If so, how was that change communicated to drivers?

Section 3.4 of the PPSCoP states:

Quote
3.4. Material changes – notices

Where there is any material change to any pre-existing terms and conditions that would not be immediately apparent to a driver entering controlled land that is or has been open for public parking, the parking operator must place additional (temporary) notices at the site entrance for a period of not less than 4 months from the date of the change making it clear that new terms and conditions/charges apply, such that regular visitors who might be familiar with the old terms do not inadvertently incur parking charges.

NOTE: Examples of material changes can include introduction of parking enforcement where none has previously applied, introduction of time-limited free parking, or reductions in the time limit within which free parking is available. Given the need to avoid confusion and clutter at entrances the test is whether the fact that a change has been made is clearly signalled to drivers on entering the land and the nature of the change is clearly displayed thereafter – it may also be necessary to install repeater notices depending on the scale of the premises.

So... was this change made within the last 4 months and if so, have CEL complied with the PPSCoP? That is one argument you can make that they will have to respond to. If they haven't then the PCN was incorrectly issued and POPLA would have to accept your appeal.

I suggest that you decide whether you want to simply pay the scammers £20 and be done with it which makes you art of the problem by funding the scam. Just what scammers hope for. Or... you can fight an unfair PCN and stand up for your rights.

We are here to assist you and will advise accordingly. I won't put together a POPLA appeal for you until I know I'm not wasting my time and effort.
Never argue with stupid people. They will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience” - Mark Twain

Albamc

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Re: Worth taking an appeal to POPLA or taking the £20 fine?
« Reply #4 on: January 12, 2025, 03:07:24 pm »
Thank you for your very detailed reply, and apologies my appeal was not up to scratch. I thought I had a reasonable case, especially as I had successfully appealed a similar ticket when the neighbouring supermarket updated its parking regulations. I was hoping proof of being a customer would be enough, but as you say, we are not dealing with reasonable people.

I'm also quite irritated by the fact they call themselves 'Civil Enforcement' to add a veneer of officialdom and respectability. The fact they immediately dropped their pants to £20 makes me think a) I may have a case and b) don't let the bastards grind you down.

The Leisure Centre re-opened in Sept '23. I'm pretty sure the parking system wasn't immediately operational - I have asked a couple of friends and left an enquiry on a local Facebook forum. However, I'm pretty sure it's been in place longer than four months.

I am planning to head down there tomorrow to check signage and speak to the reception staff who are at least usually reasonably helpful. I will report back with my findings and then perhaps we can see if you think I have a case for appeal. All help very gratefully received and I do hope not a waste of your time.

Kind regards
Al

roythebus

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Re: Worth taking an appeal to POPLA or taking the £20 fine?
« Reply #5 on: January 12, 2025, 09:45:22 pm »
Also in any future cases never, ever name the driver or admit to being the driver. It is usually the business of The Driver to sort out the parking; if the parking company don't know who The Driver is, they've got nobody to chase except the registered keeper who may or may not be The Driver.
Bus driving since 1973. My advice, if you have a PSV licence, destroy it when you get to 65 or you'll be forever in demand.

Albamc

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Re: Worth taking an appeal to POPLA or taking the £20 fine?
« Reply #6 on: January 12, 2025, 11:42:59 pm »
Thank you. I mean, they do have a photo of the car front on, but it's pretty hard to make me out. My wife immediately knew it was me, but perhaps they wouldn't. I will know for next time

b789

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Re: Worth taking an appeal to POPLA or taking the £20 fine?
« Reply #7 on: January 13, 2025, 01:40:42 am »
Go take a photo, hi res, of a random person in the street and then try and identify that person. How do you think you would do that?

The parking operator has no idea who the person in the photo is. There is no unicorn database where anyone can simply enter a photo of someone and out will spit their details. Unregulated private parking companies cannot use an image and do some kind of forensic examination. They are not the police and no crime has been committed.

Stop imagining that just because there is a photo of the driver, they can somehow identify that person. They can’t.

They have a photo of the driver… so what? They still don’t know who that is. It could be you or it could be your brother or your neighbour or it could be me. They have no idea and they are not allowed to assume nor infer that the Keeper must be the driver. There’s plenty of persuasive appeals case law that says so.
Never argue with stupid people. They will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience” - Mark Twain

Albamc

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Re: Worth taking an appeal to POPLA or taking the £20 fine?
« Reply #8 on: January 13, 2025, 07:23:29 am »
Well, that ship has clearly sailed as I have admitted to being the driver. I am dropping my kids off at school this morning and going to check out the signage, take some photos and speak to the reception staff at the Leisure Centre. I will then report back.

Albamc

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Re: Worth taking an appeal to POPLA or taking the £20 fine?
« Reply #9 on: January 13, 2025, 11:22:44 am »
Well, I have been down to the Leisure Centre, and I have to honest, from my limited experience it doesn't look great.

On the way into the Leisure Centre, there is a car park for Permit holders, clearly signposted. Then, further on, there is the main car park, which has signs about the parking restrictions at the entrance and around the car park. There is also a big sign in the entrance and one on reception. To onee honest, I was clearly concentrating on my kids at the time - they're both SEN and need an eye kept on them more than parking signs. I spoke to the reception and they said the system changed in April and the signs have been up since then, so I guess I just missed them.

I still think it's a bit silly to have the registration machine beyond the security gate, and as parking is free for 2 hrs 45 mins and I was clearly a customer as my bank statement proves, I do feel a PCN is pretty harsh. But unfortunately I don't think these appear to be good enough grounds to appeal. I have attached the photos I took, but unless I am missing something, I think it might be best to just take the £20. Annoyingly.

If anyone disagrees, please let me know!


Albamc

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Re: Worth taking an appeal to POPLA or taking the £20 fine?
« Reply #10 on: January 13, 2025, 11:24:53 am »
And four more photos, including the security gate

b789

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Re: Worth taking an appeal to POPLA or taking the £20 fine?
« Reply #11 on: January 13, 2025, 11:53:11 am »
TBH, I think you'd have a bit of difficulty arguing that there was not enough signage notifying the driver to register their VRM. You have shown a big sign outside the entrance to the building, one inside the entrance and a red one on the reception desk.

You say that the terminal for entering the VRM is beyond the security barrier by the entrance to the building. Is the soft play area you were taking your child to, also beyond this barrier?

If you were given access beyond the barrier, I don't see how you could argue the point about not being able to access the terminal. I can sympathise with your predicament of trying to control two excited children, but that does not really absolve you of the requirement to notice such obvious signs as you've shown us in the photos.

The actual terms signs you have shown us in the car park are not compliant wth the BPA/IPC Private Parking Single Code of Practice (PPSCoP) but I don't think that is going to hold much sway with a POPLA assessor in these circumstances.

In this case, unless you are adamant you want to contest the unfair charge, I would suggest paying the £20 and be done with it. Contesting through POPLA is unlikely to be successful and CEL will issue a claim if it remains unpaid. Easy enough to defend but it is a very long, drawn out process with no guarantee of success.

What have the Leisure Centre said about this charge when you complained to them about it? I don't mean complaining to someone behind the front desk but as high up the management food chain as possible. They are jointly and severally liable for the actins of their agents and as a patron, you don't expect to be invoiced by an unregulated private company for what was a mistake. Keep trying them but don't miss the deadline to pay the £20 if you are not up to fighting this all the way.
Never argue with stupid people. They will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience” - Mark Twain

Albamc

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Re: Worth taking an appeal to POPLA or taking the £20 fine?
« Reply #12 on: January 13, 2025, 11:57:32 am »
Yes, it rather looks that way, doesn't it? The soft play is actually to the left of reception whereas the security gate is to the right. But as you say, as you only have to ask at reception to let you in, I'm not sure it's a great argument. I was just concentrating on other things rather than parking signs.

Thanks for your help. I guess on this occasion I'll just have to wear the £20 and know more for next time.

Kind regards
Al