Author Topic: Seeking Advice on PCN Received After Parking Payment Issues at Soft Play  (Read 165 times)

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Chris101

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On 24/10, the driver took their children to a soft play center. Upon arrival, they found that the payment machine for parking (cash/card) was either out of order or the process had moved entirely online. The driver attempted to use the designated app to make payment but encountered significant issues: poor signal and technical difficulties with the app itself prevented the payment from going through.

After spending about 10 minutes trying to resolve the issue, the driver had to prioritize their children’s soft play session, which was about to begin. They decided to head inside with the intention of sorting the payment once inside. Unfortunately, the driver became distracted and didn’t attempt payment again until roughly 30 minutes later. At that point, they successfully completed the payment, as evidenced by the receipt. However, they were unable to backdate the payment on the app and could only pay for an hour starting from the time the transaction was processed. The driver is aware that their total stay slightly exceeded the hour paid for.

Recently, the lease company informed the vehicle’s keeper that they had received a PCN (Parking Charge Notice) related to this incident. The lease company has charged a £12 admin fee for handling the notice and has contacted the issuing company, Gemini, requesting that the notice be readdressed to the driver directly. They advised that no appeal should be made until the PCN is issued in the driver’s name. As of now (21/11), the driver is still waiting for Gemini to send the notice directly to them.

Key Questions:

Are there grounds to challenge this PCN?

Given that payment was ultimately made (albeit delayed), and that genuine issues with the app and signal caused the delay, does the driver have a valid basis to contest the PCN?
Does the inability to backdate payment on the app provide further grounds for challenge, especially since the driver paid for as much time as they could from the point the transaction was completed?
What should the driver expect when the PCN arrives?
Are there specific details or evidence that Gemini must provide, particularly in the case of a private lease vehicle?

Does Gemini have any legal obligations to provide additional evidence?
For instance, should Gemini provide photographic evidence of the vehicle’s entry and exit, a timeline of the parking session, or a detailed breakdown of the alleged breach?

Does the fact that payment was made for an hour, even if slightly under the full duration of the stay, provide grounds for mitigation?
Could the fact that a payment was made and the overstay was marginal help challenge the validity of the PCN?

Any advice, similar experiences, or guidance on how to handle this situation would be greatly appreciated. The driver wants to ensure they approach this correctly and fully understand their rights before taking action. Thank you!
« Last Edit: November 21, 2024, 08:13:20 pm by Chris101 »

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b789

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Re: Seeking Advice on PCN Received After Parking Payment Issues at Soft Play
« Reply #1 on: November 22, 2024, 12:23:02 am »
Lucky for you, you have a “Golden ticket”, as long as the driver is not identified. Gemini cannot “readdress it to the driver” because they do not know who the driver is. Neither does the lease company. They can only transfer liability to you as the “Hirer”.

If they have transferred the liability correctly as instructs on the Notice to Keeper (NtK) they received and you have shown it to us, then there is no more liability for the company. You must now wait for a Notice to Hirer (NtH) to be sent to you in your name.

What is likely to happen, with greater than 99% certainty, is that Gemini will send you the NtH in your name. However, they are almost certainly going to omit the copies of required documents as required under PoFA paragraph 14 and will therefore be unable to hold you, the hirer liable.

Only the driver is liable and there is no legal obligation on the Hirer to identify the driver. With that in mind, when you receive the NtH, you will appeal only as the Hirer and decline to provide the drivers details.

At the end of the day, they will have nowhere to go with this as they are not allowed to infer or presume that the Hirer must also be the driver.

So, wait patiently for the NtH to arrive and let us know when it does and we’ll give you the appeal template to use.

The only thing to make sure of, does the lease company have your current address to pas on to Gemini?
Never argue with stupid people. They will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience” - Mark Twain

Chris101

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Re: Seeking Advice on PCN Received After Parking Payment Issues at Soft Play
« Reply #2 on: November 22, 2024, 10:40:54 am »
Yes, the lease company has the hirer’s current address and assume, has passed it on to Gemini. Additionally, the hirer was not the driver at the time of the incident.

DWMB2

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Re: Seeking Advice on PCN Received After Parking Payment Issues at Soft Play
« Reply #3 on: November 22, 2024, 10:52:28 am »
assume, has passed it on to Gemini.
We've found hire companies can be rather unpredictable when it comes to dealing with these things. It may be sensible to check with them directly rather than assuming.
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b789

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Re: Seeking Advice on PCN Received After Parking Payment Issues at Soft Play
« Reply #4 on: November 22, 2024, 10:55:38 am »
Good. It doesn't matter if the Hirer was the driver or not. The burden of proof would be on the operator to show that the Hirer was the driver and the only way they could do that is if the Hirer told them they were also the driver, which they are under no legal obligation to do so to an unregulated private parking company.

You must now wait for the NtH to arrive in the Hirers name. Once it does, confirm to us whether it contains the following documents:

(a) a statement signed by or on behalf of the vehicle-hire firm to the effect that at the material time the vehicle was hired to a named person under a hire agreement;
(b) a copy of the hire agreement; and
(c) a copy of a statement of liability signed by the hirer under that hire agreement.

What you don't know is on what date the lease company transferred the liability to the Hirer. The operator has to "give" the NtH to the Hirer with 21 days of them receiving the liability transfer and required documents, if they intend to rely on PoFA to try and hold the Hirer liable.
Never argue with stupid people. They will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience” - Mark Twain

Chris101

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Re: Seeking Advice on PCN Received After Parking Payment Issues at Soft Play
« Reply #5 on: December 07, 2024, 12:58:00 pm »
The Hirer recieved the attached letter today, no other associated letters, other than this one.
How should they proceed?
« Last Edit: December 07, 2024, 01:05:51 pm by Chris101 »

b789

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Re: Seeking Advice on PCN Received After Parking Payment Issues at Soft Play
« Reply #6 on: December 07, 2024, 01:55:13 pm »
Good. As you now have a Notice to Hirer (NtH) in your name, you can appeal, only as the Hirer, as they have no idea who the driver is, and tell them to go rotate on a sharp stick, slowly.

Use the following as your appeal as the Hirer (do not select anything that suggests anything except that the appellant is the Hirer or anything except driver.:

Quote
I am the Hirer of the vehicle and I dispute your 'parking charge'. I deny any liability or contractual agreement and I will be making a complaint about your predatory conduct to your client landowner.

As your Notice to Hirer (NtH) does not fully comply with ALL the requirements of PoFA 2012, you are unable to hold the Hirer of the vehicle liable for the charge. As your NtH did not include copies of the documents mandated in PoFA paragraph 14(2)(a), you have failed to fully comply with ALL the requirements of PoFA if your intention was to hold the Hirer liable.

Partial or even substantial compliance is not sufficient. There will be no admission as to who was driving and no inference or assumptions can be drawn. Gemini has relied on contract law allegations of breach against the driver only.

The Hirer cannot be presumed or inferred to have been the driver, nor pursued under some twisted interpretation of the law of agency. Your NtH can only hold the driver liable. Gemini have no hope at IAS, so you are urged to save us both a complete waste of time and cancel the PCN.
Never argue with stupid people. They will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience” - Mark Twain
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Chris101

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Re: Seeking Advice on PCN Received After Parking Payment Issues at Soft Play
« Reply #7 on: December 07, 2024, 02:14:38 pm »
Attempting to appeal via Gemini website and the attached image is of the mandatory field that must be selected when appealing.

Is there an email I can appeal to?

b789

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Re: Seeking Advice on PCN Received After Parking Payment Issues at Soft Play
« Reply #8 on: December 07, 2024, 02:55:41 pm »
appeals@geminiparkingsolutions.com

Make sure you make your appeal as a PDF letter addressed to:

Gemini Parking Solutions London Ltd
PO Box 815
Wigan
WN1 9WX

But sent as an email attachment to the email address above.

If I can figure that out after a 2 minute Google search, you should be able to do so too!
Never argue with stupid people. They will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience” - Mark Twain

Chris101

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Re: Seeking Advice on PCN Received After Parking Payment Issues at Soft Play
« Reply #9 on: December 07, 2024, 04:00:04 pm »
Apologies, I did and forgot to update here!
The email was sent with the PCNN number and template.
Should one be resent as a PDF this time?

b789

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Re: Seeking Advice on PCN Received After Parking Payment Issues at Soft Play
« Reply #10 on: December 07, 2024, 04:52:40 pm »
Apologies, I did and forgot to update here!
The email was sent with the PCNN number and template.
Should one be resent as a PDF this time?

What does that mean? You either sent the appeal as advised, as a PDF attachment to an email or you used the webform and selected something that does you in the mire.

What did you do?
Never argue with stupid people. They will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience” - Mark Twain

DWMB2

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Re: Seeking Advice on PCN Received After Parking Payment Issues at Soft Play
« Reply #11 on: December 07, 2024, 05:12:06 pm »
I read it as meaning they put the content that would otherwise have gone into the PDF into the body of their email. Would be useful for the OP to clarify.
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Chris101

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Re: Seeking Advice on PCN Received After Parking Payment Issues at Soft Play
« Reply #12 on: December 07, 2024, 05:51:28 pm »
I read it as meaning they put the content that would otherwise have gone into the PDF into the body of their email. Would be useful for the OP to clarify.

Correct, content was sent in the body of the email instead of as an attachment within a pdf.

Chris101

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Re: Seeking Advice on PCN Received After Parking Payment Issues at Soft Play
« Reply #13 on: December 10, 2024, 11:22:56 pm »
Response below from Gemini.
Email template was first sent without pdf (template as text within body of email) and then sent again with pdf attached -


Thank you for contacting Gemini Parking Solutions


My apologies for the delay in responding to you.


All appeals must be submitted in writing and sent to our appeals team either using our online portal or postal address below:
 
Gemini Parking Solutions London Ltd
PO Box 5767
Dingwall
IV15 0AX
 
Please ensure that you include your full name and address, vehicle registration number, and the Parking Charge Reference when submitting your appeal. 

Please be advised that this notice is not issued under POFA legislation and as a result the points mentioned in your email, are not relevant in this case. Gemini Parking Solutions issue notices when the Terms and Conditions of parking are deemed breached. Payment and validation data is received and processed by our payment match system, and if no payment or validation can be located during this process, a Parking Charge Notice is automatically generated, and issued in accordance to the International Parking Communities (IPC) guidelines.

At the final stage, Registered Keeper details are requested from the DVLA and written notice is sent to the Registered Keeper, advising them of the alleged contravention and providing them the opportunity to submit an appeal, or transfer the liability to the driver at the time of the event if they believe the notice has been issued incorrectly. 


Kind Regards,
Gemini Parking Solutions

DWMB2

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Re: Seeking Advice on PCN Received After Parking Payment Issues at Soft Play
« Reply #14 on: December 10, 2024, 11:59:29 pm »
So they say you can't appeal by email, then take up much of the email responding to your appeal - having their cake and eating it?  ;D

You could leave it, having made your point. Or you could respond briefly as follows:

Dear Sirs,

I note the contents of your recent correspondence. I welcome your confirmation that you have chosen not to make use of POFA legislation and are therefore not seeking to hold me liable for this charge as the hirer of the vehicle.

As I now have written confirmation from you that you are unable to recover the charge from me, I see no need to appeal further, as we seem to be in agreement that I do not owe you anything as the hirer of the vehicle.

I trust this will be the end of the matter, however, any further attempts to hold me liable will be vigorously defended.

Yours faithfully,
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