3. PCN - Gemini Parking Solutions - Failure to Pay for Duration of Stay
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PCN - Gemini Parking Solutions - Failure to Pay for Duration of Stay
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Hi all

The driver received this parking fine at Mile End Leisure Centre after parking for an event that was nearby. The driver wasn’t aware that payment was necessary. Wondering if there is an argument here to challenge? Perhaps more technical argument around fatal flaws in the PCN?

Appreciate any advice.

PCN below:

[REMOVED BY MODERATOR]
« Last Edit: June 18, 2024, 08:57:37 pm by DWMB2 »
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Re: PCN - Gemini Parking Solutions - Failure to Pay for Duration of Stay
« Reply #1 on: »
I have removed that notice as you have left both the VRM and PCN reference number visible. With those details someone could log onto Gemini's appeals portal and cause mischief. Please re-attach with those details removed. Additionally, it is the registered keeper who has received the notice - Gemini have no idea who the driver was, and you should keep it that way.

In the meantime, Gemini are making no attempt to hold the registered keeper liable using the provisions of Schedule 4 of the Protection of Freedoms Act, and have issued the notice too late to do so even if they wanted to. With this in mind, assuming you are the registered keeper, you could appeal along the lines of the below:

Dear Sirs,

I have received your Parking Charge Notice (Ref: ________) for vehicle registration mark ____ ___, in which you allege that the driver is liable for a parking charge. I note from your correspondence that you are not seeking to hold me liable as the registered keeper, under Schedule 4 of the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 ("The Act"). You have chosen not to issue a Notice to Keeper in accordance with The Act, and it is now too late for you to do so.

There is no obligation for me to name the driver and I will not be doing so. I am therefore appealing on the grounds that I have no liability as the registered keeper of the vehicle. I am unable to help you further with this matter, and look forward to your confirmation that the charge has been cancelled.

Yours,

If you are not the registered keeper, tell us, as a different approach may be needed.

If appealing online, be careful there are no drop down/tick boxes that cause you to identify who was driving, and keep a close eye on your spam folder for their response. If they do not respond, chase them.

Gemini will very likely reject your appeal, because they can. You will then have the opportunity to appeal to the IAS. Some (not unreasonably) regard them as a kangaroo court, that aren't worth bothering with. Whilst I often agree, in clear cut cases like this, where the notice has been issued too late for there to be any PoFA liability, my view is they are worth appealing to - it takes comparatively little effort, and they do sometimes uphold these sort of cases.
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Re: PCN - Gemini Parking Solutions - Failure to Pay for Duration of Stay
« Reply #2 on: »
Many thanks for that, I have appealed with what you have provided me and will keep you posted.

In the meantime, I’ve redacted the details from the PCN:

https://imgur.com/a/Rcwpqwf
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Re: PCN - Gemini Parking Solutions - Failure to Pay for Duration of Stay
« Reply #3 on: »
Hi

I received the attached response from Gemini … not quite sure how to proceed? Any advise appreciated..

Thanks
https://imgur.com/a/Vny0wyy
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Re: PCN - Gemini Parking Solutions - Failure to Pay for Duration of Stay
« Reply #4 on: »
Their usual nonsense. See what others reckon but I'd be tempted to respond along the lines of the below:

Dear sirs,

I have received your recent correspondence in respect of my appeal against parking charge ______ for vehicle ______.

Thank you for confirming that responsibility for the charge lies with the driver at the time, and not with me, the registered keeper. As we are in agreement on this point, which formed the basis of my appeal, I look forward to you confirming that my appeal has been successful and that no further action will be taken against me.

As already stated in my appeal, there is no obligation for me to name the driver and I will not be doing so. You do not require any further information to process my appeal and I expect you to make a decision on the information already provided.

Yours,
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Re: PCN - Gemini Parking Solutions - Failure to Pay for Duration of Stay
« Reply #5 on: »
Thanks for this, looks like I can only respond via post which is slightly annoying. I’ll need to make sure correspondence is sent signed for
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Re: PCN - Gemini Parking Solutions - Failure to Pay for Duration of Stay
« Reply #6 on: »
Quote from: iispartan on June 28, 2024, 03:42:50 pm
I’ll need to make sure correspondence is sent signed for
I wouldn't - if they refuse to sign for it, all you'll be left with is proof your item was not delivered. Send it regular first class post, asking for a free certificate of posting from the Post Office. You then enjoy the presumption that your item was delivered 2 working days after posting, unless the contrary can be proven.
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Re: PCN - Gemini Parking Solutions - Failure to Pay for Duration of Stay
« Reply #7 on: »
Why waste your time and the cost of first class postage when you can simply email your response as a PDF attachment to an email addressed to info@geminiparkingsolutions.com. The email address in the header of their letter to you.

Just make sure that you put the PCN reference number in the email title and mention in the body that your response to their correspondence is attached and for whoever reads the email should forward it to the "Appeals department".

CC in yourself as your "proof of posting".
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Never argue with stupid people. They will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience” - Mark Twain
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Re: PCN - Gemini Parking Solutions - Failure to Pay for Duration of Stay
« Reply #8 on: »
Hi all

So I’ve responded via email as suggested and today I received a response from Gemini parking solutions which is exactly the same as their previous response ie saying in order to proceed the appeal I need to inform them if the driver.

Feels like I’m going round and round, what are sensible next steps in a situation such as this?

cheers
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Re: PCN - Gemini Parking Solutions - Failure to Pay for Duration of Stay
« Reply #9 on: »
Have they offered to extend the discounted amount again? If so, part of me would be tempted to respond in the same manner again to see how long they're prepared to keep up the back and forth  ;D

The other part of me would be tempted to make a complaint (not an appeal) to Gemini, noting their failure to consider your appeal, as they are required to do by both the IPC's Code of Practice that was in force at the time of the parking incident, and the new Single Code of Practice.

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Re: PCN - Gemini Parking Solutions - Failure to Pay for Duration of Stay
« Reply #10 on: »
I would simply respond with a warning that they should now consider this response as a complaint, not an appeal.

Quote
Subject: Formal Complaint Regarding Harassment and Unlawful Requests for Driver Details

Dear Sir/Madam,

I am writing to formally lodge a complaint, not an appeal, regarding your repeated requests for the identity of the driver concerning the Parking Charge Notice (PCN) [Reference Number], issued on [Date].

As the registered keeper of the vehicle [Vehicle Registration Number], I wish to draw your attention to the following points:

Non-Compliance with PoFA:

Your Notice to Keeper (NtK) does not meet the statutory requirements outlined in the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 (PoFA), as has previously been pointed out to you and you are fully aware of. Therefore, under PoFA, I, as the keeper, am not and cannot be liable for this charge.

No Legal Obligation to Name the Driver:

As the keeper, there is no legal obligation for me to name the driver and I decline to do so. Any suggestion or demand for such information is not supported by law. The registered keeper cannot be presumed or inferred to have been the driver, nor pursued under some twisted interpretation of the law of agency.

Harassing Behavior:

Your persistent and repeated requests for the driver's details, despite knowing there is no obligation for me to provide them, now constitute harassment. Such conduct is not only vexatious but also a misuse of your position as an unregulated private parking company with no authority whatsoever.

I consider your repeated correspondence demanding the driver’s details to be harassment under Section 1 of the Protection from Harassment Act 1997. This is causing unnecessary distress and is contrary to acceptable conduct.

Complaint and Cease and Desist Demand

I formally request that you:

Acknowledge receipt of this complaint.

Cease and desist from sending any further requests for the driver’s details or any other communications to me regarding this matter, other than to confirm that no further action will be taken against me as the keeper of the vehicle.

Please be advised that should you decide to file a claim against me as the keeper, I will file a Part 20 counterclaim for harassment and any other applicable remedies available under law, including but not limited to:

Data Protection Breach: Filing a complaint with the Information Commissioner's Office (ICO) for potential breaches of the Data Protection Act 2018 and UK GDPR.

Consumer Protection: Pursuing remedies under the Consumer Protection from Unfair Trading Regulations 2008.

Unfair Contract Terms: Contesting the enforceability of any unfair terms under the Consumer Rights Act 2015.

Please confirm in writing that you will cease all further contact with me regarding this matter within 14 days of the date of this letter.

I look forward to your prompt response to this formal complaint.

Yours faithfully,
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Never argue with stupid people. They will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience” - Mark Twain
Re: PCN - Gemini Parking Solutions - Failure to Pay for Duration of Stay
« Reply #11 on: »
Funnily enough they have re-offered the discount as a gesture of good will, what nice chaps.

Thanks for the template, I will lodge a complaint and keep the group updated.

Thanks
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Re: PCN - Gemini Parking Solutions - Failure to Pay for Duration of Stay
« Reply #12 on: »
Quote from: iispartan on July 16, 2024, 07:03:20 pm
Funnily enough they have re-offered the discount as a gesture of good will, what nice chaps.
If you can keep that back and forth going until 2030 the alleged debt will time out  ;D
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Re: PCN - Gemini Parking Solutions - Failure to Pay for Duration of Stay
« Reply #13 on: »
Hello all

I’ve received the below response, looks like it has been cancelled, thanks a lot for all your help in here!

Hi,

I hope you are well today,

I can confirm that the attached notice(s) have been cancelled and closed on our system and with Debt Recovery

Please allow 24 hours before confirming closure of this case with DRPL

No further action required.

Warm regards
Gemini Parking Solutions Customer Services Team
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Re: PCN - Gemini Parking Solutions - Failure to Pay for Duration of Stay
« Reply #14 on: »
Well done. As a matter of interest, did you send that letter of complaint?
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Never argue with stupid people. They will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience” - Mark Twain
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