Author Topic: Parking Eye Chase Farm (Carpark: Patient and Visitor 3)  (Read 148 times)

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Parkingchase

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Parking Eye Chase Farm (Carpark: Patient and Visitor 3)
« on: July 08, 2024, 10:38:59 pm »
Hi FTLA,

The driver, an NHS staff member, attended a training at the hospital for a short stay.

When they arrived in the carpark (they found a space, they also check and found that the parking machine did not dispense tickets that could be displayed inside the car as it is a paperless system.)

The process as indicated on instructional signage was to enter your numberplate as you leave the facility which will then display the amount that needs to be paid.
 
The driver arrived at the hospital at 10:48 once parked the driver checked the ticketing machine which confirmed they needed to enter their details when leaving.

They attended their training which lasted approximately 2 ½ hours, when they return to their car they followed the instructions on the machine to pay for parking.
 
Once they entered their numberplate they had expected to be prompted to pay the amount in line with the 3 hour parking charge, however the machine required £10 to be paid (the maximum charge for a 24h period).

In addition, the machine would not allow payment by card ‘out of order’ and stated It would take cash payment only.

There was no option to amend the amount or dispute the charge and once paid no receipt was dispensed or option to request confirmation of payment again as the machine only accepted cash.
 
On 02/04/2024 they received via post, a parking fine from Parkingeye LTD. a discounted £60 fine charging them £100 if not paid ‘early’.

Their claim is that the driver parked and left without paying at the carpark on the day of their training (21.04.24).

The driver does not dispute parking between the stated hours, they do however dispute both having parked without paying the appropriate parking amount and remaining in the carpark longer than permitted.
 
In addition to the above they were unable to dispute the charge with Parkingeye LTD. As their appeals process on the parking eye website was unusable due to an ongoing website error which block the submission of appeals on their portal.

The driver attempted to contact the Royal free trust parking team close to the date of receiving the PCN but received no response for several months and this remained quite after following up in the last weeks.

The driver unfortunately did not contact POPLA as they waited for a reply from the NHS royal free trust parking team.

Now a county court letter arrived from parking eye. The details of which will be attached below.

Time is unfortunately very limited and the driver intends to defend themselves as they paid firstly more than what should have been owed and now are being pursued for £210. However lack of a receipt is a key issue challenge.

Any advice would be very much appreciated. Thank you.
« Last Edit: July 09, 2024, 12:01:18 am by Parkingchase »

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Parkingchase

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Re: Parking Eye Chase Farm (Carpark: Patient and Visitor 3)
« Reply #1 on: July 08, 2024, 11:06:04 pm »
Timeline

Parking - 21/03/2024

PCN Received - 02/04/2024 [Image 1]

Parking Eye Website Appeal Attempt - 15/04/2024 [Image 2]

Email Sent to PARKINGRFL (The hospital parking management) - 15/04/2024
Note: In this email a screenshot of parking eye website complaint failure and almost identical description of the situation as above took place.

County Court Letter arrived - 28/04/2024 [Image 3]

Follow up emails to PARKINGRFL - 30/06/2024, 02/07/2024, 05/07/2024
Note: The follow up emails ask for them to get in touch. [ Guests cannot view attachments ]

b789

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Re: Parking Eye Chase Farm (Carpark: Patient and Visitor 3)
« Reply #2 on: July 09, 2024, 02:29:15 am »
We can’t see any images so it is difficult to advise. Have you followed the instructions in this thread:

READ THIS FIRST - Private Parking Charges Forum guide

There is already a thread on an almost identical situation at the location already running. However, in that case the driver has a receipt.

The date the PCN was “received” is irrelevant. The date it was “issued” is what counts if the keeper is trying to figure out whether they can be liable under PoFA.

You say you’ve received a “county court letter”. Do you mean an N1SDT claim form from the CNBC? If so, did you receive a Letter of Claim (LoC) before the claim was issued?

What is the date of “issue” of the claim form? Has it been issued by PE directly or are they using a solicitor, usually DCB Legal? The box under the claimants name and address tells you who any correspondence should be addressed to.

Ideally, please show us the claim form redacting only your personal details, the VRM, the claim number and the MCOL password. Everything else should remain.
Never argue with an idiot. They will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience. - Mark Twain.

Parkingchase

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Re: Parking Eye Chase Farm (Carpark: Patient and Visitor 3)
« Reply #3 on: July 09, 2024, 10:30:03 am »
Thanks for your reply b789.

Attachments now uploaded via imgur. Yesterday this was not possible as the server was apparently full and advised to contact administrators, see image.

It's a N1SDT claim form.

Need to check with the driver that no other letters were received.

Issue date of PCN 27/03/2024

Issue date of the N1SDT 24/06/2024



https://imgur.com/a/In4bO6z
« Last Edit: July 09, 2024, 10:59:49 am by Parkingchase »

b789

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Re: Parking Eye Chase Farm (Carpark: Patient and Visitor 3)
« Reply #4 on: July 09, 2024, 01:27:39 pm »
With a claim issue date of 24th June, you need to acknowledge service (AoS) of the claim by 13th July. Here is a guide on how to do that:

https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/gp4lan4cb225p7ajkoy6z/money-claim-online-How-to-Acknowledge.pdf?rlkey=pu8zhuiaxbva4cjdmge72nh4r&e=1&dl=0

There is no advantage to delaying AoS but by filing it in a timely manner, you then have until 4pm on Monday 29th July to file your defence. That's almost three weeks away.

Do not use MCOL to file the defence. Your defence will be filed as a PDF attachment by email to the CNBC. Do not use the MCOL website to file your defence.

Here is a link to the template for the defence. You only need to state whether you were the keeper, driver, both or neither and then add a single paragraph outlining your response to the allegation in the PoC.

There are a couple of additional paragraphs which I will give you to put in to the defence as preliminary matters once you've shown us the paragraph that is your defence. The rest of the template cover everything and must be used.

Do not write War & Peace. You are answering the woefully inadequate PoC. You will expand on everything at a later date when it is time for your Witness Statement.

https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/2hnjkuljjr54pvs7m2pte/Updated-defence-Aug2023-4.rtf?rlkey=yzw080l0rw6l41dzv4m0867va&st=ohe4hf1m&dl=0

We could do with seeing the back of the NtK as PE have failed to show what the added £25 in the claim is for. The are in breach of PoFA 4(5) in that they are not allowed to claim for more than the amount that was on the NtK, which was £100.

The burden of proof lies with PE to show that the driver didn't pay. You say that the driver did. How do you think you can evidence that a parent was made? Would their payment machine keep a log of all payments made?
Never argue with an idiot. They will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience. - Mark Twain.

Parkingchase

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Re: Parking Eye Chase Farm (Carpark: Patient and Visitor 3)
« Reply #5 on: July 09, 2024, 09:50:24 pm »
Thanks.

Sorry what is NtK and PoC short for?

So I have checked with the driver and they did indeed receive another letter I have attached that one it is also where PE claim £25 where added for debt collection.

Page 1 https://imgur.com/sGWKmRs
Page 2 (backside) https://imgur.com/HcHXwd8

Important Note: The driver was not aware of the second letter as they were very ill in hospital for an extended period and had just been released 2 days prior and were still recovering from home when that letter arrived. This could easily be proven as they were also off work (rare for the driver) and it will be on their patient file somewhere.


Image of the backside of the PCN (I assume the NtK) https://imgur.com/q35e9G8

Payment was just made with the loose change the driver managed to find as they were not expecting to pay the full day fee as it was supposed to be the <3hrs.
Therefore the only evidence would indeed be if the PE machine logs payments on a daily basis or weekly basis.

Would the driver be able to argue that the end of day accounting would not have added up correctly on that day when compared with the tariffs and timestamps of all the cars on the lot.
As they definitely inserted more money than PE's system would have logged parking time on the ANPR.
 
(So unless someone else paid too little for their parked time the total accounting on that day would have to be around £7 higher than the total parked time.)

DWMB2

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Re: Parking Eye Chase Farm (Carpark: Patient and Visitor 3)
« Reply #6 on: July 09, 2024, 09:56:49 pm »
NtK = Notice to Keeper (the original parking charge notice received through the post)
PoC = Particulars of Claim (bottom left corner of the county court claim form)

You keep referring to the driver, and what he can/cannot argue, but the Claim Form suggests that ParkingEye are not suing the driver, but instead the Registered Keeper - if that's the case, it is the keeper who will be off to court. Has the identity of the driver been revealed to ParkingEye at any point in the process?

Parkingchase

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Re: Parking Eye Chase Farm (Carpark: Patient and Visitor 3)
« Reply #7 on: July 09, 2024, 10:04:31 pm »
Driver has not been identified to PE.

What happens in these two scenarios Driver = Keeper?
Driver is not the keeper?

(Asked both questions to avoid publicly putting information out there)


In addition I reached out to POPLA to confirm there is nothing they can do at this point.


They confirmed they can only become involved if an appeal has been reject (issues a 10 digit code).

As PE website for appeals was not working at the time there was no way to obtain a 10 digit code.

Therefore no POPLA appeal could have been made at the time.

Would this be a valid argument? Or would the driver/keeper be expected to revisit the website frequently until it works again to appeal?
« Last Edit: July 09, 2024, 10:07:22 pm by Parkingchase »

b789

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Re: Parking Eye Chase Farm (Carpark: Patient and Visitor 3)
« Reply #8 on: July 10, 2024, 01:43:44 am »
The driver and the keeper are two separate legal entities. A person can be either, both or neither. The driver is always the person that is liable for the alleged debt. PE have no idea who the driver is. If they issue the PCN (an NtK in this case) and fully comply with the requirements of PoFA, and the keeper doesn’t identify the driver to them, they can transfer the liability from the unknown driver to the known keeper.

As the keeper has not identified the driver, PE are pursuing the known keeper… you.

As the keeper did not appeal the PCN, there was no rejection. A POPLA code is only provided with the appeal rejection. A POPLA code lasts for 33 days. You cannot appeal to POPLA without a code.

Was any communication initiated with PE about the failure of their appeals web portal? Does the NtK mention any other way to submit an appeal?

You could go through the BPA Code of Practice (CoP) as there is a clause regarding circumstances when they should re-initiate the appeals process. It is also expanded on in the new joint CoP with the IPC. There is a link to the new joint CoP on the private parking forum home page and there is a link to the BPA CoP in @DWMB2’s signature.
Never argue with an idiot. They will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience. - Mark Twain.

Parkingchase

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Re: Parking Eye Chase Farm (Carpark: Patient and Visitor 3)
« Reply #9 on: July 11, 2024, 11:45:27 pm »
Thanks b789.
Unfortunately the backside of the NtK does state appeals can also be made via postal mail.
The site failure + screenshot was not sent to PE online it is near impossible except for a narrow set of predefined topics to contact them.


Further developments:

- A reply after escalating was finally received from the hospitals parking team.
Will share more details when solid developments come through.

For now we will assume that everything proceeds as normal with the court process as this is already underway.


Q's after reading the BPA CoP:
Q1)  23.3 Photographic evidence. Can one try to ask PE for photographic evidence of the driver paying? As they would have to provide it due to the CoP. As we know the ticket on the day was paid this would help clarify (not conclusively of course) that PE have no evidence at all that the driver didn't pay.

Q2) Thinking of defence...there are two signs https://imgur.com/B1nbdkQ and https://imgur.com/gek3EsZ. Step 6 says a receipt is automatically issued. This did not happen.
On that sign the only contact details are for the telephone number which is used to pay fines, you cannot wait and get through to someone it ends the call. Could this be part of an argument that PE is not reachable in the case of a failure at their fully automated carpark. Forcing a driver to leave the site without a receipt in case of a malfunction making them susceptible to situations such as this one before writing to the PO Box. It makes it impossible for them to report failures in automation at the scene, which immediately results in a PCN being issued.

Q3) CoP 23.13.a.b) Given the occurrence of a similar case I'm sure I saw on another website but that disappeared at the same carpark and the other one (where the person has a receipt) on this site it would not be surprising if there are far more. Can BPA be asked to try and access this information?

Q4) Finally does anyone know in CoP 7.2 if PE have to ask the owners of the private land (I believe the hospital, but would need to check that) every single time they want to pursue a legal case or just once with a general outline?

b789

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Re: Parking Eye Chase Farm (Carpark: Patient and Visitor 3)
« Reply #10 on: July 12, 2024, 01:32:11 am »
Have you read this thread for a similar issue at the same location which was successfully cancelled by the PALS team after a complaint was sent as high as possible up the management food chain?

Parking Eye Chase Farm Hospital

Read it and use the same procedure as described in there and email the CEO of the NHS Trust, adjusting for your circumstances.

Whilst it is less likely to succeed as a claim has been filed, they can still order their agent to discontinue. PE won’t want to upset their contractor as this is probably a very lucrative location for them.

If it isn’t cancelled, then you will have to submit a defence. Have you done the AoS yet? You only have until tomorrow to do that. It is urgent that you do so.

Once the AoS has been done, you then have until 4pm on Monday 29th July to file the defence. That’s over two weeks away. If you don’t file the AoS in time, you are likely to get a CCJ by default which will be for the whole claim amount plus another £27 court hearing fee, whereas if you defend and lost, you’d pay less than the claim amount as the added £25 is not allowed.

So, AoS is your priority. Email the NHS Trust CEO or as high up the management food chain as you can go and complain about PE and this faulty/defective payment system and ask them to call off their agent. Be prepared to highlight this issue with your local media outlets and on social media too. Finally, think about your defence.

Once you’ve thought about the defence, show us the first five or six paragraphs. No need to show the whole defence as most of it unchanged. You will be sending all thirty or so paragraphs. Don’t send anything until we’ve reviewed and critiqued it.

Remember your deadlines.
Never argue with an idiot. They will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience. - Mark Twain.

Parkingchase

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Re: Parking Eye Chase Farm (Carpark: Patient and Visitor 3)
« Reply #11 on: July 12, 2024, 01:56:06 am »
I did indeed see the post. Thanks for the notification.

Looked for an email address to send to the director of operations but was less successful.

But I will certainly escalate it higher and higher up as information becomes available.

For now the line of communication with the parking team is open and the PALS team have already been contacted and will be cc'd in on the next.

AoS will be filed.


b789

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Re: Parking Eye Chase Farm (Carpark: Patient and Visitor 3)
« Reply #12 on: July 12, 2024, 02:29:18 am »
Have you PM’d the user of that thread and asked for the contact info they used?

You don’t work your way up the management chain. You start at the top or as high as you can get.
Never argue with an idiot. They will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience. - Mark Twain.

Parkingchase

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Re: Parking Eye Chase Farm (Carpark: Patient and Visitor 3)
« Reply #13 on: July 13, 2024, 02:17:09 am »
User PM'd haven't heard back.

AoS sent off yesterday.

In the meantime a without prejudice (save as to costs) letter was received to settle for £70 from PE.
This is still unacceptable as the driver already paid more than what should have been due for the parking on the day of the incident. And paying PE for the administrative costs for trying to pursue a debt that was not owed to begin with is not a compromise or 'without prejudice' in my personal opinion.

I suppose this is somehow inline with 24.1b of the BPA CoP debt recovery fee cap before court action as far as it looks to me though court action has already begun.

b789

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Re: Parking Eye Chase Farm (Carpark: Patient and Visitor 3)
« Reply #14 on: July 13, 2024, 08:44:28 am »
Keep looking for how to reach the trust ceo or their deputy. Use online complaint form if necessary.

The “without prejudice” letter simply means that you can’t use it as evidence in court, for example, to show that their conviction about how weak they think their case must be if they’re prepared to reduce the debt they allege you owe them.

Please confirm that you used the MCOL webform to “send off” the AoS or that you downloaded a pdf of the AoS form and emailed it as an attachment to an email rather than “sent” it by snail mail.
« Last Edit: July 13, 2024, 08:46:29 am by b789 »
Never argue with an idiot. They will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience. - Mark Twain.