Author Topic: Forest housing association - E11 2QT - Time in car park  (Read 3542 times)

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Forest housing association - E11 2QT - Time in car park
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Hi Wizards,

I hope all of you are well.

My brother does Amazon parcel delivery, he had multiple parcel drops at the location, he couldn't have parked the Van on main road as it's double yellow lines all the way.

We have received the ticket that he spent 23 mins and now have to pay £100 (within 14 days £60).

Paying £60 takes pretty much half of his days wages, it seems cruel for them to issue tickets to Van holder when they know they either came to do some work at the address or to drop parcels and stuff.

Ticket can be seen in the GDrive:
Front page: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1vR0zfAN3k6w24_eoChilJaPDp0LAj0RY/view?usp=drive_link
Back page: https://drive.google.com/file/d/18M4OH33F-1SFYlfoMsUq4GGj2kewwlFA/view?usp=drive_link

GSV:
https://tinyurl.com/343aypz5

Ticket issued by and can be viewed at:
https://portal.parkingeye.co.uk
Parking Charge Reference: 128753/610483
Vehicle Registration Number: KN71EYD

Can you please suggest if something can be done about this ticket?

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Re: Forest housing association - E11 2QT - Time in car park
« Reply #1 on: »
If the delivery was to residents of the housing then:

Jopson & Homeguard may come in to the issue.

Regulars will explain.

Re: Forest housing association - E11 2QT - Time in car park
« Reply #2 on: »
Tell your brother to read the Highway Code. Stopping to load or unload on double yellow lines (DYL) is not prohibited. Only if the kerb has the yellow "blips", is it prohibited.

It's impossible to read the first two section of the back of the Notice to Keeper (NtK) you have shown us. Those are the only two parts that matter!

...it seems cruel for them to issue tickets to Van holder when they know they either came to do some work at the address or to drop parcels and stuff.

How does the ANPR know that the van is being used to deliver Amazon packages?

As the driver was loading and unloading, this can be defended if it ever went as far as court. In most cases, it will never get that far, but you have to go through the motions.

For now, simply follow this advice... There is no legal obligation on the known keeper (the recipient of the Notice to Keeper (NtK)) to reveal the identity of the unknown driver and no inference or assumptions can be made.

The NtK is not compliant with all the requirements of PoFA which means that if the unknown driver is not identified, they cannot transfer liability for the charge from the unknown driver to the known keeper.

Use the following as your appeal. No need to embellish or remove anything from it:

Quote
Subject: Appeal against Parking Charge Notice – [Insert PCN Reference]

I am the registered keeper of the vehicle and I dispute your 'parking charge'. I deny any liability or contractual agreement and will be making a formal complaint to your client landowner regarding your predatory conduct.

Your Notice to Keeper (NtK) fails to comply with the mandatory requirements of Schedule 4 of the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 (PoFA), specifically paragraph 9(2)(e)(i). This provision requires the NtK to invite the keeper to pay the unpaid parking charges. Your notice merely states that the driver is liable and instructs the keeper to pass the notice to the driver and provide their details. That is not sufficient. The statutory wording is clear: unless the NtK invites the keeper to pay, you cannot transfer liability. Partial or substantial compliance is legally inadequate.

There will be no admission as to who was driving, and no assumptions or inferences may be drawn. ParkingEye has relied on contract law allegations of breach against the driver only. The registered keeper cannot be presumed or inferred to have been the driver, nor pursued under any misinterpretation of agency law.

Further, the driver was engaged in legitimate loading/unloading activity while delivering packages to multiple units within the complex. This took approximately 23 minutes and falls squarely within the scope of Jopson v Homeguard [2016] B9GF0A9E, where His Honour Judge Harris QC stated:

A milkman leaving his float to carry bottles to the flat would not be ‘parked’. Nor would a postman delivering letters… Any other approach would leave life in the block of flats close to unworkable.

This was a delivery operation, not a breach of any parking terms. Your attempt to penalise such activity is unreasonable and unsupported by law. You have no hope at POPLA, so you are urged to save us both a complete waste of time and cancel the PCN.

Never argue with stupid people. They will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience” - Mark Twain

Re: Forest housing association - E11 2QT - Time in car park
« Reply #3 on: »
@b789 I do apologize, I have now taken a fresh screenshot of the back of the page, here is the pic which is clear and readable:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1W68IjjDEAeq0WkvRLCfTzs1lO9402bJw/view?usp=drive_link

Re: Forest housing association - E11 2QT - Time in car park
« Reply #4 on: »
Follow the advice already given.
Never argue with stupid people. They will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience” - Mark Twain

Re: Forest housing association - E11 2QT - Time in car park
« Reply #5 on: »
@b789 I have appealed today, Ill update as soon as I receive a reply from them.

Thanks for your help, much appreciated.
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Re: Forest housing association - E11 2QT - Time in car park
« Reply #6 on: »
@b789, I've received an update to our appeal today, here is the letter they sent us try to scare with their language:
PDF: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1JuMURUHC-k67mnUXbNRv0w74ba0DwdQ_/view?usp=drive_link
PIC: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1o8wI8ZvOaS5ALAp3g5nucBEXuXByV0Mu/view?usp=drive_link

Could you please advise next step?

Thanks.

Re: Forest housing association - E11 2QT - Time in car park
« Reply #7 on: »
You already said
Quote
There will be no admission as to who was driving,
so this is just an attempt to get you to do otherwise.
Do nothing, and they will reject your appeal but give you a POPLA code.
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Re: Forest housing association - E11 2QT - Time in car park
« Reply #8 on: »
@b789 I have received an email from ParkingEye today, they have issued the POPLA code:

Document link:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/13n0x9m7HRwVB8r1NVfrIhpmk0FbO3HnZ/view?usp=sharing

Can you please advise what should be the next step?

Thanks in advance.

Re: Forest housing association - E11 2QT - Time in car park
« Reply #9 on: »
You have 33 days for the date of the appeal rejection to submit a POPLA appeal. Just do a search of the forum for any recent POPLA appeals to get an idea of what you should put in and how to structure a POPLA appeal.

When you think you have something, post it here and we will advise on whether it needs refining.
Never argue with stupid people. They will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience” - Mark Twain
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Re: Forest housing association - E11 2QT - Time in car park
« Reply #10 on: »
Hi Wizards, what do you think about below draft POPLA appeal?

POPLA Verification Code: 6062555711
Vehicle Registration: KN71EYD
PCN Reference: 128753/610483
Issued by: Parkingeye

________________________________________
I. Introduction
I am the registered keeper of the vehicle. I deny any liability for the parking charge and appeal in full.
The vehicle in question was engaged in Amazon parcel deliveries at Forest housing association. The stop was temporary and solely for the purpose of unloading parcels to residents. This was not “parking.” The charge is invalid and must be cancelled.

________________________________________
II. Grounds of Appeal
1. Delivery/Unloading is Not Parking
The courts have consistently recognised that delivery or loading/unloading activities do not constitute “parking.”
•   In Jopson v Homeguard Services Ltd [2016] B9GF0A9E (Oxford County Court, HHJ Harris QC), it was held:
“The concept of parking… is that of leaving a car for some duration of time beyond that needed for getting in or out of it, loading or unloading it… Merely to stop a vehicle cannot be to park it; otherwise traffic jams would consist of lines of parked cars. Delivery vans, whether for post, newspapers, groceries, or anything else, would not be accommodated on an interpretation which included vehicles stopping for a few moments for these purposes.”
This case is directly on point. The judge expressly included delivery vans in his ruling.
•   In Bulmer v Jopson (2017, unreported but noted in parking law commentary), this reasoning was reinforced, and the industry has accepted Jopson as binding persuasive authority.
Therefore, a delivery van engaged in active unloading cannot lawfully be treated as “parked.”

________________________________________
2. Breach of the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 (PoFA)
The Notice to Keeper fails to comply with Schedule 4 of PoFA:
•   It does not specify the period of parking (9(2)(a)). The operator has instead cited “time in car park,” which may include driving, stopping briefly, or unloading — none of which amount to “parking.”
•   Without full PoFA compliance, no keeper liability can arise.

________________________________________
3. No Evidence of Contract or Landowner Authority
The operator is put to strict proof of:
•   A clear, unambiguous contract with the landowner permitting it to issue charges against delivery drivers;
•   Evidence that the signage is adequate, visible, and allows for the lawful performance of delivery functions without penalty.
Section 14 of the BPA Code of Practice requires clear landowner contracts. Without this, the operator has no standing.

________________________________________
4. Unreasonable and Unconscionable Charge
The ParkingEye v Beavis [2015] UKSC 67 decision does not apply here. In Beavis, the charge was upheld because of a legitimate commercial interest (ensuring space turnover in a retail car park).
By contrast:
•   This is a residential/housing association site;
•   There is no commercial need to penalise short-term delivery vans;
•   The charge is therefore a penalty, unenforceable at common law.

________________________________________
5. Industry Codes of Practice and Public Policy
The BPA Code of Practice requires operators to act fairly and reasonably. Penalising a van driver for delivering parcels — an essential and time-bound activity — is neither fair nor reasonable.
Moreover, Government policy (PoFA 2012, DLUHC Private Parking Code of Practice 2022, albeit temporarily withdrawn pending consultation) emphasises that parking controls must not penalise unavoidable activities like loading and unloading.

________________________________________
III. Conclusion
The driver was engaged in a legitimate, time-limited delivery. This is not “parking” in law. The charge is unsupported by contract, unenforceable under PoFA, contrary to binding persuasive case law (Jopson v Homeguard), and unreasonable under consumer protection principles.
Accordingly, this appeal must be upheld and the charge cancelled.
[Your Name]
Registered Keeper

Re: Forest housing association - E11 2QT - Time in car park
« Reply #11 on: »
Nice and concise but what is this "Bulmer v Jopson (2017)" you cite? I have never heard of it and it is unpublished.

Jopson v Homeguard is the go-to relevant, persuasive case law.

Remember, the POPLA assessor may be one of the dimmer ones and you need to lead these assessors by the nose to the conclusion you are trying to reach. Assume the assessor is intellectually malnourished or, has a mental age of an infant school pupil. How would you explain why the PCN has been issued unfairly or unlawfully to that pupil. For example...

Quote
This is a story about a busy little van called "Amazon" who went to visit Forest Homes on a weekday morning. The van was full of parcels with names and flat numbers on them, and the driver was careful and kind and wanted to make sure everyone got their things on time. He steered the van slowly through the gate, found a safe place to stop near the entrance, and said, “I will stop here for a short while so I can take the parcels inside”. He did not turn off for a long rest, and he did not wander away to do something else. He simply paused, opened the back, lifted the boxes one by one, and began to carry them to the flats.

Up on a tall pole, a quiet camera watched the road. The camera was very good at taking a picture when the van came in and another picture when the van went out, and it wrote down the clock times in neat little numbers. But the camera could not see the driver carefully walking to the door, could not see the parcels being lifted and signed for, and could not see that the stop was a short and necessary part of the day. The camera only knew “time in” and “time out”, and it did not understand what happened in between.

On the wall by the entrance there was a sign with many words and many rules. The letters were small and the sentences were long, and they were hard to read while doing a quick and careful job. The driver did not stand and study the sign because people were waiting for medicines and books and bits and bobs they needed at home. He chose to work swiftly and safely, and he carried on unloading so that the people in the flats would not be kept waiting. A fair sign should help a driver do a short, important task, not try to catch him out while he is doing good work.

Later, a letter came to the keeper of the van. The letter said, “Pay this charge”, and showed the two pictures with the two times, and it called the whole thing “time in car park”. But the letter did not show a period of parking, because there was no period of parking. There was only a short stop to unload. The law that helps keepers, called the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012, asks for a true period of parking if someone wants to make the keeper pay, and a drive in and a drive out with a short unload in between is not that. A camera’s clock does not turn a careful unload into parking; it only shows that a vehicle was somewhere for a while.

There was also another story told before by a wise judge in a case called Jopson v Homeguard. In that story, the judge explained that “parking” means leaving a car for longer than the little time needed to get in or out or to load and unload, and that a quick stop for deliveries is different. He even spoke about delivery vans, which must sometimes pause at doors to carry things inside. The judge’s words fit this story very well, because the van at Forest Homes was doing just that—stopping briefly to unload parcels so that people could receive their goods, and then moving on as soon as the job was done.

The keeper also asked a simple question that is important in places like this: “Who says the company may give out charges here, and where is the paper that proves it?” If a company wants to send letters and collect money, it should be able to show a clear agreement with the landholder, written down properly and not hidden or chopped up, saying it may act in its own name. If there is no such paper, then there is no standing to demand money from drivers who are just doing their work.

Some people might remember a famous story called Beavis, about a very busy shop car park where a charge was used to make sure spaces turned over quickly for shoppers. But this story is not that story. Forest Homes is not a retail park, and a delivery van doing a short, necessary unload is not the same as a shopper who overstays for a long time. There is no special reason here to punish a quick stop that helps residents receive their parcels, and so the lesson from Beavis does not fit these facts.

So our story has a gentle ending. The Amazon van arrived, the driver stopped for a short time, the parcels were carried to the right doors, and the van went away. The camera saw arrival and departure but did not see unloading. The sign was not clear or kind for a quick and necessary task. The letter did not show a period of parking as the law requires, and no proper proof has been shown that the company may claim money in its own name. The earlier judge’s story tells us that unloading is not parking, and that is exactly what happened here. For these simple reasons, the fair and sensible thing is to cancel the charge and let the little van carry on helping people with their parcels.
Never argue with stupid people. They will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience” - Mark Twain

Re: Forest housing association - E11 2QT - Time in car park
« Reply #12 on: »
@b789 I love your description of POPLA assessor, reminds me of when I used to run around the house in my wet nappies.

I agree with your point about "Bulmer v Jopson (2017)", it's not a 2017 case I read it somewhere and added it (looks more like a typo), I will remove it from my final submission.

Do you think after removing above rest of the appeal looks good or would you suggest some more changes?

Re: Forest housing association - E11 2QT - Time in car park
« Reply #13 on: »
Here is a slightly tidier body for the appeal:

Quote
I. Introduction

I am the registered keeper. I deny liability and appeal in full. The vehicle was engaged in Amazon parcel deliveries at Forest Housing Association. The stop was brief and solely for unloading parcels to residents. That activity is not “parking”, and no enforceable charge arises.

II. Grounds of Appeal

1. Delivery/unloading is not “parking”
In Jopson v Homeguard Services Ltd [2016] B9GF0A9E (Oxford County Court, HHJ Harris QC, appeal), the court explained that “parking” means leaving a vehicle for a duration beyond that needed for getting in or out, loading or unloading. The judge stated that merely stopping is not parking, and expressly contemplated delivery vehicles carrying out short, necessary unloading. On the facts here, the vehicle paused only to unload parcels and then departed. ANPR images showing entry and exit do not evidence any period of “parking” within the meaning adopted in Jopson. Accordingly, no parking contract arose.

2. No keeper liability – Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 (Schedule 4) not complied with
Keeper liability is created only if the operator strictly complies with every applicable requirement of Schedule 4. The Notice to Keeper fails paragraph 9(2)(a) because it does not state a “period of parking”. “Time in car park” derived from ANPR includes driving and brief stopping/unloading, which is not a period of parking. The operator is put to strict proof of full compliance with all other mandatory elements of paragraph 9, including 9(2)(e), 9(2)(f), 9(2)(h), 9(2)(i) and 9(5). Any defect defeats keeper liability. As the keeper, I cannot be held liable.

3. No standing – landowner authority (strict proof)
The operator is put to strict proof of a valid, contemporaneous, unredacted, site-specific contract or lease flowing from the landowner that authorises ParkingEye to manage parking, issue PCNs, and pursue them in its own name. The Private Parking Single Code of Practice (PPSCoP, 17 Feb 2025) section 14.1(a-j) (Relationship with Landowner) sets mandatory minimums: written confirmation identifying the landowner; the precise site/plan and boundaries (and any applicable byelaws); the duration and scope of authority; the detailed parking terms and conditions including any permissions/exemptions; the method of issuing/enforcing PCNs; responsibility for planning/advertising consents; and the operator’s obligations and appeals procedure under the Code. These are preconditions to issuing PCNs. The operator must produce a dated and signed agreement by authorised signatories. Redactions must not obscure the above; generic attestations or agent letters are insufficient unless they evidence compliance with PPSCoP §14.1(a-j).

4. No contract formed – signage incapable of creating a fair and transparent agreement for delivery circumstances
The operator must prove that signage was sufficiently prominent, legible, and positioned so that a delivery driver could read and understand the terms before any alleged contract was formed. At a residential estate where delivery vehicles must briefly stop near entrances, any term purporting to prohibit or penalise short unloading is unreasonable in context and incapable of fair acceptance at the material time. ANPR timestamps do not prove that terms were seen or accepted. Under the Consumer Rights Act 2015 (sections 62–68), terms must be fair and transparent; a term penalising a brief, essential delivery stop is not fair or transparent and should not be enforced.

5. Beavis is distinguishable on facts and purpose
ParkingEye v Beavis [2015] UKSC 67 concerned shopper parking at a retail site with a strong legitimate interest in space turnover. This is a residential housing association location and the vehicle performed a short, essential unloading task. There is no comparable commercial justification to penalise a brief delivery stop. Any charge here operates as a penalty rather than a proportionate deterrent linked to a legitimate interest, and is therefore unenforceable on these facts.

6. Private Parking Single Code of Practice – consideration and grace; fair treatment
Under the Private Parking Single Code of Practice (17 February 2025), operators must act fairly and reasonably and must not penalise unavoidable, brief activities such as loading/unloading. The Code distinguishes (i) a consideration period on arrival to read and decide whether to stay (section 5.1) and (ii) a minimum 10-minute grace period after a parking session ends (section 5.2). ANPR “in/out” does not evidence a true period of parking or compliance with these safeguards. Penalising a delivery driver for a short, necessary unload conflicts with these standards.

III. Conclusion

The evidence shows only entry and exit, not a period of parking. On Jopson v Homeguard, the brief stop for unloading was not “parking”, so no contract arose. The NtK fails PoFA Schedule 4 because it does not state a period of parking and the operator has not shown strict compliance with all other requirements; keeper liability therefore fails. The operator has not proved landowner authority, the signage could not form a fair and transparent contract for a short delivery stop, and Beavis is not applicable to these facts. For these reasons, the appeal must be allowed and the charge cancelled.
Never argue with stupid people. They will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience” - Mark Twain

Re: Forest housing association - E11 2QT - Time in car park
« Reply #14 on: »
@b789 Thanks for the final amends much appreciated.

I've gone ahead and appealed to POPLA today, will update when they upload their evidence.

Thanks.
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