Author Topic: DCBL (debt collection bailiffs ltd)  (Read 280 times)

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b789

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Re: DCBL (debt collection bailiffs ltd)
« Reply #15 on: March 02, 2024, 12:32:20 pm »
This is getting tedious. You now say you have ‘received a letter that wasn’t sent to you’… what on earth does that mean? Is the letter addressed to you at your correct address or is it addressed to you at your family members address and it was subsequently passed to you?

If the V5C is in your name but not your address, why didn’t your family member tell you about the original PCN instead of letting you be ambushed?

If you are the registered keeper but not the day to day keeper, why doesn’t your family member register the car in their own name? The V5C is not proof of ownership. You can own the car but be neither the driver or the keeper.

I’d suggest you do one of two things… throw your family member under the bus and tell CEL they were driving or… irrespective of ‘exceptional circumstance’, you could still email CEL and show that the NtK was sent to the wrong address and they should send you the original as per BPA CoP 23.8.

You need to sort out the V5C if you want to avoid all sort of problems in future.
« Last Edit: March 02, 2024, 12:35:46 pm by b789 »

Nosy Parker

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Re: DCBL (debt collection bailiffs ltd)
« Reply #16 on: March 03, 2024, 11:37:42 am »
I’m on my hols and looking at threads in the odd spare moment so I haven’t had the time to unpick all the (mis)information in this one.

I did pick up the comment that this is a council owned car park. If that’s true, it’s possible that there is no keeper liability because car parks provided or controlled by councils that fall within the definition of ‘traffic authority’ in the law known as POFA are exempt from the provisions in POFA for keeper liability. So are car parks where parking is subject to statutory control.

If this council is a traffic authority or the car park is covered by parking byelaws, the keeper has a cast iron defence and if nobody identifies the driver, the driver can’t be pursued. Check out POFA paragraph 3 - https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2012/9/schedule/4/enacted

H C Andersen

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Re: DCBL (debt collection bailiffs ltd)
« Reply #17 on: March 03, 2024, 04:30:51 pm »

offense in a local car park connected to a council run leisure Centre.

This is the only mention of 'council', no suggestion it's anything other than a private PCN.

OP, pl stick to answering the last post and to repeat an earlier post of mine - post the docs, what ever they are, and tell us to whom they're addressed.


Nosy Parker

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Re: DCBL (debt collection bailiffs ltd)
« Reply #18 on: March 03, 2024, 10:50:57 pm »
… and this has come from CEL who apparently run the council owned car park.

Looks like I’m not the only one on holiday and only skim-reading. This is from the post that specifically identifies the location as a “council owned car park”.

Nosy Parker

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Re: DCBL (debt collection bailiffs ltd)
« Reply #19 on: March 04, 2024, 07:33:45 am »
I have conducted some research of my own.

The Leisure Centre website says it is managed in partnership with East Herts Council by Sports and Leisure Management Limited https://www.everyoneactive.com/centre/hartham-leisure-centre/

The audited accounts of that company describe its business as the management of sports and leisure facilities on behalf of local authorities:

https://find-and-update.company-information.service.gov.uk/company/02204085/filing-history

East Herts Council is a district council and therefore a traffic authority as defined in POFA paragraph 3.

Therefore (notwithstanding HCA’s reservations) I think it’s likely that this car park is provided or controlled by a traffic authority and therefore excluded from the POFA definition of relevant land.

All of which means that the registered keeper can write to the Data Protection Officers of CEL and DCBL along the following lines:

“Dear Sir or Madam

Re [        ]     

I have received correspondence from your organisation in relation to the above referenced parking charge.

Please note that I am the registered keeper of the vehicle. I am not obliged to identify the driver and I decline to do so.

As there is no presumption in law that the registered keeper of the vehicle drove it on any particular occasion CEL cannot pursue me for the parking charge as driver.

As the car park in question is provided or controlled by East Herts Council it is not ‘relevant land’ as defined in paragraph 3 of Schedule 4 to the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012. So CEL cannot pursue me as keeper.

As CEL has no legal entitlement to pursue me for this parking charge I require your organisation to erase my personal information from its records.

I have attached a copy of a [recent utility bill][my vehicle V5C registration document] to show that I am the correct data subject that your organisation must delete along with the rest of my personal information.

Failure to act in accordance with my erasure request may open your organisation to a claim for compensation under data privacy law. Continuing to press me to pay this parking charge may open your organisation to a claim for compensation under the Protection from Harassment Act 1997.

I will vigorously defend any claim brought against me in pursuit of this parking charge and will seek costs and counterclaim from compensation if such a claim is brought.

Yours faithfully,”

The email addresses are

dataprotectionofficer@ce-service.co.uk

dpo@dcbltd.com
« Last Edit: March 04, 2024, 10:24:02 am by Nosy Parker »
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Nosy Parker

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Re: DCBL (debt collection bailiffs ltd)
« Reply #20 on: March 04, 2024, 08:35:40 am »
BTW, it looks as though East Herts Council is acting in breach of ministerial requirements by allowing its car park to be operated like a private car park with PCNs issued on a contractual basis. Have a look at the ministerial letter on the subject https://committees.westminster.gov.uk/documents/s31749/Appendix%20F%20-%20Letter%20from%20DfT.pdf

DWMB2

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Re: DCBL (debt collection bailiffs ltd)
« Reply #21 on: March 04, 2024, 09:28:02 am »
A very minor correction, I belive it is the Protection from Harassment Act 1997 rather than of

Nosy Parker

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Re: DCBL (debt collection bailiffs ltd)
« Reply #22 on: March 04, 2024, 10:25:13 am »
Good catch, thanks DWMB. I’ve corrected that post.
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H C Andersen

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Re: DCBL (debt collection bailiffs ltd)
« Reply #23 on: March 05, 2024, 09:10:09 pm »
Still reserved and with good reason IMO.

The only references to 'council' are from the OP who instead of posting docs simply gives us their interpretation and despite me asking to see whatever they have, the OP has ignored.

So, what is the sum of the OP's contribution on this point?

offense in a local car park connected to a council run leisure Centre.

V5 address correct. Location..council run leisure Centre car park in Hertford.


Miraculous change.

OP, post the only documents you have pl.

DWMB2

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Re: DCBL (debt collection bailiffs ltd)
« Reply #24 on: March 05, 2024, 09:54:10 pm »
Miraculous change.
So miraculous in fact that it doesn't even appear to be a material change. Nosy's research seems sound - the letter we have seen makes clear it's the car park at the leisure centre, which seems to clearly be part of the same premises - and the leisure centre would seem to be owned by the council (as they proudly state on their website).

If there are documents the OP has but has not shared, it would indeed be useful to see them.

I'm still not sure that we've established the issue around whose name and what address is on the V5C document...

Nosy Parker

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Re: DCBL (debt collection bailiffs ltd)
« Reply #25 on: March 05, 2024, 10:11:29 pm »
The only references to 'council' are from the OP
Prompted by the OP’s claim at Reply # 11 that it’s a ‘Council owned car park’I did some research of my own. I reported the results at Reply #19. Those results support the proposition that it’s a Council owned car park without relying on the OP’s word.

The fruits of that research are persuasive but not conclusive so I asked the question directly via a FOI request to East Herts District Council. I’ll post the reply when it comes in.

H C Andersen

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Re: DCBL (debt collection bailiffs ltd)
« Reply #26 on: March 06, 2024, 02:41:30 pm »
My research shows three car parks in Hartham Lane, clearly shown on GSV:

Hartham Common:
Hartham Lane:
Hartham Leisure Centre.

Hartham Common and Hartham Lane are listed on the council's website, the leisure centre is not.

The Off-Street order does not list the car park of the leisure centre. https://tro.trafficpenaltytribunal.gov.uk/TRO/East%20Hertfordshire/ET08.pdf

The Lane and Common car parks have clear identity i.e. EHDC.

The leisure centre similarly, but it's private, and has been for at least 5 years.

IMO, the evidence is overwhelming that the leisure centre car park is 'relevant land'. If someone wants to run an argument that because the leisure centre is 'managed in partnership with EHDC' this must mean that it is 'owned or operated' by the council by virtue of them also being empowered to provide off-street car parks, then they'll need more than just words but legal argument.

I don't want to continue with this as Nosy Parker is well respected and equally well versed in matters, I'll just bow out now knowing that I've put my case to the OP in the best way I can.
« Last Edit: March 06, 2024, 02:49:30 pm by H C Andersen »

DWMB2

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Re: DCBL (debt collection bailiffs ltd)
« Reply #27 on: March 06, 2024, 03:00:52 pm »
According to the council themselves "The centre is owned by East Herts Council and managed by Everyone Active".

Let's see what the FOI comes back with.

Nosy Parker

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Re: DCBL (debt collection bailiffs ltd)
« Reply #28 on: March 06, 2024, 03:09:14 pm »
To everyone (except HCA who has bowed out):

The question is whether the Leisure Centre car park is “provided or controlled” by the Council; not whether it’s “owned or operated” by the Council.

I’m aware of a number of local authorities who have handed over the operation of Council car parks to private operators in the (in my view) erroneous belief that they have thereby converted a council car park into a private one (examples include the City of London and Transport for London).

I will report the results of my FOI request when they come through.

As a practical matter, OP has nothing to lose and much to gain by sending the letter I provided at reply #19.

OP have you sent that email?
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sparxy

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Re: DCBL (debt collection bailiffs ltd)
« Reply #29 on: March 06, 2024, 07:28:46 pm »
To everyone (except HCA who has bowed out):

The question is whether the Leisure Centre car park is “provided or controlled” by the Council; not whether it’s “owned or operated” by the Council.

I’m aware of a number of local authorities who have handed over the operation of Council car parks to private operators in the (in my view) erroneous belief that they have thereby converted a council car park into a private one (examples include the City of London and Transport for London).

Be interesting to see what the FOI returns.

Similar, locally there are facilities run by a third party company, on council land (buildings once were also owned by the council, and still is owned by the council on the land registry), who also have private parking companies in situ. There is however no council orders in relation to those car parks, and FOI sent to said council returned an excerpt of lease contracts handing over control of the land for X period. My friend paid the ticket before I could get dug further into it unfortunately, even with the offer of me paying for the whole thing if they eventually took them to court and won.