Author Topic: Help re an eviction notice while abroad  (Read 1032 times)

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PeacefulWarrior

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Re: Help re an eviction notice while abroad
« Reply #15 on: November 01, 2023, 02:09:09 pm »
Hi Southpaw. So far, no one has produced enough evidence to substantiate the fact that indeed a HCEO can use force, or to what extent that force can be used. I rather go by what the law says, instead of relying on hearsay.

In my research thus far I did not come across anything to specifically say that, hence my express requests that people contribute with actual links to legislation.

Not to mention that the crux of the matter remains: the Appointed Person on the Notice of eviction should also be the same as the HCEO that will attend the property. The name I was given came up empty, again and again. I can't confirm that he is who he says he is. Would you trust that person coming to your door? I am still amazed that nobody is concerned about that being so.

Today, the so called HCEO replied to my email. Took him a while and he probably had to dig deep and consult someone is their legal department. However, the information he gave me and the links to legislation are not only irrelevant to the case, dealing with collections of fines or inapplicable situation, but the main piece of evidence he relies upon has actually strengthened my case against the use of force. He sent me to look up a precedent dated 1604, Semayne's case, where I came across this brilliant definition of it, by Sir Edward Cooke:

https://www.dealingwithbailiffs.co.uk/Semayne-v-Gresham1604.htm

'The Semayne case is the origin of the modern phrase: A mans house is his castle and this is borne out of Sir Edward Coke's commentary - The house of everyone is to him is his castle and fortress, as well for his defence against injury and violence as for his repose and if thieves come to a man's house to rob or murder, and the owner or his servants kill any of the thieves in defence of himself and his house, it is no felony and he shall lose nothing. This sets the common law rule that forced entry by a bailiff cannot be made into private homes.'

andy_foster

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Re: Help re an eviction notice while abroad
« Reply #16 on: November 01, 2023, 02:25:50 pm »
Nobody needs to prove anything to you. You can either accept the advice given or not.
I am responsible for the accuracy of the information I post, not your ability to comprehend it.
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M60NJP

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Re: Help re an eviction notice while abroad
« Reply #17 on: November 01, 2023, 02:44:40 pm »
If you drip-feed things and omit key information it's hard for anyone to be specific!

Do bear in mid not everything is enshrined in law and indeed the law seldom says what one CAN do and most often prescribes what one CANNOT.

PeacefulWarrior

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Re: Help re an eviction notice while abroad
« Reply #18 on: November 01, 2023, 02:49:12 pm »
Nobody needs to prove anything to you. You can either accept the advice given or not.

'Nobody needs to prove anything to you.' I never asked for proof of anything, just references. And what you say may be so, yet it would be nice if people relied on actual law when advising people, not personal opinion, wouldn't you agree?

'You can either accept the advice given or not.' Indeed.

PeacefulWarrior

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Re: Help re an eviction notice while abroad
« Reply #19 on: November 01, 2023, 02:55:55 pm »
If you drip-feed things and omit key information it's hard for anyone to be specific!

Do bear in mid not everything is enshrined in law and indeed the law seldom says what one CAN do and most often prescribes what one CANNOT.

I didn't realize I was drip-feeding information, I was just presented things as they were unfolding. If it appeared so, it wasn't my intention.
I get what you are saying about the law and my intention is to find out exactly what the person named on the writ cannot/is not supposed to be doing, before he actually comes and does his deed. Preempting is always better than remedying, just as prevention is always better than a cure.

M60NJP

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Re: Help re an eviction notice while abroad
« Reply #20 on: November 01, 2023, 02:58:32 pm »
Well, one obvious question is - having been given legal notice to vacate, why are there still tenants in Situ? It reads as if the law HAS been applied correctly from the judgement laid down - if you think otherwise, please share it and the advice may differ. If not, heed what has been posted already...........

cp8759

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Re: Help re an eviction notice while abroad
« Reply #21 on: November 01, 2023, 07:03:06 pm »
I get what you are saying about the law and my intention is to find out exactly what the person named on the writ cannot/is not supposed to be doing, before he actually comes and does his deed. Preempting is always better than remedying, just as prevention is always better than a cure.
I'm the person you first approached for assitance so I'll give you my thoughts as I think you consider that although I am not a qualified lawyer, I am vaguely competent to give reasonably reliable legal advice.

I think you need to apply a bit of pragmatism here. If you insist that you can't come back to the UK in time and your N244 isn't dealt with before Friday (which seems likely, the courts normally take weeks to process anything), then regardless of whether you will ultimately be vindicated in the fullness of time, the likelihood is that the HCEO will (rightly or wrongly) evict anyone present on Friday and any minors will be taken into the custody of social services, as obviously an officer of the court cannot leave children homeless on the street. I know precisely zero about family law but I can't imagine social services would be impressed that you put minors in such a position.

So the question is not really what will happen when in six months or a year at a subsequent hearing where a judge might say that you were right all along, the real question is where do you expect the children to sleep on Friday night if the HCEO (rightly or wrongly) does what he says he's going to do?

And without looking up any references, I can tell you as a fact that once a court has granted an eviction order and a warrant has been obtained, a suitably empowered bailiff / HCEO can use reasonable force to make entry, regardless of who might be inside the premises. I have dealt with this previously but I don't have time to go and look up all the references, so either you accept this advice, or you don't.

If you really can't get back to the UK to deal with this, the best advice I can give you is to arrange for the children to vacate the premises themselves before Friday and go and stay with a friend or relative until you get back.

This might all sound very harsh but our mission here is to tell you how it is, rather than to tell you what you'd like to hear.
I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law. Section 6 of the Interpretation Act 1978 applies to everything I post as it would apply to an Act of Parliament. I am a Conservative councillor, this means some people think I am "scum". I am not a lawyer.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order
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rosywillow

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Re: Help re an eviction notice while abroad
« Reply #22 on: November 01, 2023, 07:11:55 pm »
You are confusing debt collection with eviction.  Bailiffs cannot force entry on their first visit (but can thereafter)  if they are only collecting a debt, but they can force entry if they are carrying out an eviction, which is what is intended on Friday.

HCEO bailliffs can force entry to evict you. See for example: https://england.shelter.org.uk/housing_advice/eviction/what_happens_when_bailiffs_evict_tenants

Having an unaccompanied minor in the property will not prevent the eviction.  If there's a minor in the property they will call social services.  They have a High Court Possession order, that's all they need to give them the legal power to force entry, evict the tenants and change the locks.  They may agree to give you access to the property/to a storage facility on a later date if you have not removed all of your property, but you may be charged for storage.

Instructing a 15 year old to deal with this without an adult and to resist the bailiffs is unconscionable. 

He can call the police, but the police do not have the power to stop or delay the eviction.  All they can do is prevent a breach of the peace by anyone including onlookers. 

Not every HCEO is listed on the site you found (it's an organisation which some HCEOs choose to belong to and some don't); common sense should tell you that a big company like Marstons for example - who work throughout the UK - will employ more than three HCEOs, yet only three are listed for Marstons on that site.

The bit you found about business debts is inapplicable because this isn't about a debt or business premises, but an eviction from a residential property.

Semayne v Gresham talks about where goods are being seized, but the page to which you link makes it clear that bailiffs can force entry in certain circumstances, one of those being when the King (in modern parlance, this is understood to be the Court) has given the order.

If you cannot or will not return to the UK by Friday, and if your N244 doesn't succeed in delaying the eviction, my advice is not to put your children in the position of having to deal with this.  Get them to stay with friends so at least you won't be facing a social services investigation into leaving them alone in the UK and allowing them to experience such a traumatic thing as eviction.
« Last Edit: November 01, 2023, 07:28:36 pm by rosywillow »
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DancingDad

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Re: Help re an eviction notice while abroad
« Reply #23 on: November 01, 2023, 08:56:52 pm »
I would also make sure that personal possessions are removed or at least anything with real or personal value.
You are in denial and if you don't want to believe that is up to you.
But make no mistake, when the bailiffs turn up, they can use reasonable force to enter and to remove people.
They will then change the locks and you have no right of access.
You will need permission from landlord or their agents to remove your property and they have the right to charge you storage.
They can also charge you for added costs such as for the bailiffs and for the locks.

If your son or anyone else obstructs the bailiffs, they can be arrested.

Southpaw82

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Re: Help re an eviction notice while abroad
« Reply #24 on: November 01, 2023, 09:22:35 pm »
I rather go by what the law says, instead of relying on hearsay.

I think part of the problem is that you donít know what the law says, or perhaps that you donít know what law is applicable to your particular circumstances.

rosywillow

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Re: Help re an eviction notice while abroad
« Reply #25 on: November 01, 2023, 09:46:52 pm »
Your tenancy was brought to an end under section 21 of the Housing Act 1988 https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1988/50/contents

You chose not to leave at the end of your tenancy so your landlord used section 42 of the County Courts Act 1984 https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1984/28/contents to obtain a writ of possession, which is enforceable under Civil Procedure Rules Part 83:13. https://www.justice.gov.uk/courts/procedure-rules/civil/rules/part-83-writs-and-warrants-general-provisions

I cannot find any web pages that suggest that evictions cannot go ahead if there is a minor living in the property.  Anyone who has watched Can't Pay? We'll Take It Away! will recall that several evictions of families with children took place, entirely legally.
« Last Edit: November 01, 2023, 09:49:04 pm by rosywillow »
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cp8759

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Re: Help re an eviction notice while abroad
« Reply #26 on: November 01, 2023, 10:01:22 pm »
I cannot find any web pages that suggest that evictions cannot go ahead if there is a minor living in the property.  Anyone who has watched Can't Pay? We'll Take It Away! will recall that several evictions of families with children took place, entirely legally.
While the evictions were lawful, the broadcast was held not to be in Ali & Anor v Channel 5 Broadcast Ltd [2018] EWHC 298 (Ch) as upheld by the Court of Appeal in Ali & Anor v Channel 5 Broadcasting Ltd [2019] EWCA Civ 677.
I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law. Section 6 of the Interpretation Act 1978 applies to everything I post as it would apply to an Act of Parliament. I am a Conservative councillor, this means some people think I am "scum". I am not a lawyer.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order

Lurker

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Re: Help re an eviction notice while abroad
« Reply #27 on: November 02, 2023, 01:30:11 pm »
Came upon this thread by chance.

OP - Please listen to what you are being told. I have worked as a Housing Officer, and can tell you without any doubt that a bailiff can and will force entry to a property to carry out an eviction, and that the presence of children at the property will not stop the eviction from being carried out.  I have attended evictions where children have been present and the eviction has gone ahead. 

You should also be aware that the site you have taken your advice regarding the law on this is not to be relied on.  At the bottom of the home page we find:

ALL RIGHTS RESERVED. (c) Action for Justice UK Ltd.

As it happens, I've come across AFJ before.  They are Freeman On The Land influenced scammers.
https://www.action4justice.co.uk/

As others have said, if you leave children alone to deal with this you risk them taken into care of social services, and you may well find yourself in further legal difficulty.
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DancingDad

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Re: Help re an eviction notice while abroad
« Reply #28 on: November 12, 2023, 04:12:56 pm »
Curious minds would like to know what happened?

One suspects being as OP hasn't been back to say that it all went as planned with bailiffs retreating in confusion that it didn't go well.

PeacefulWarrior

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Re: Help re an eviction notice while abroad
« Reply #29 on: November 14, 2023, 03:26:12 pm »
The reason I backed off and didn't answer lately is due to the fact that I did not come here to be judged by anyone, or to be called names. Looking back at the messages just now, some were less than kind or helpful. Let alone supportive. And I am still amazed how many people think they know exactly what the law says, while being totally misguided and giving ill informed advice. This only leads to other people bowing their heads in front of injustice, because they didn't know their true rights.

When I posted this and said I needed 'help', I meant I was looking for actual, practical help to deal with the situation, and not 'I think you should be doing this, because this is what I would do if I were you': rosywillow getting my thanks here, as she was one on point, every time. 

Thank you all for your advice, no matter whether it was based on actual law or just influenced by TV shows, hear say or any other questionable sources. I know you all meant well, so it is appreciated nevertheless.

As for the curious minds? I won't torture you much longer and rest assured I will update this thread in due time, once I have more details, so we can all learn from this experience. For the time being I will not engage in any further speculations about what may or may not happen. All that matters is that one should stick to his guns and follow his conscience, no matter what. The truth will prevail in the end, always.

For the time being, I will leave you with the immortal words of a great, wise man:

He who knows, does not speak. He who speaks, does not know.

Lao Tzu