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Messages - tincombe

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316
Simply being driven in the zone is proof enough. On a different strand of this, I understood that the BB discount applies only when the BB holder is in the car. You've only suggested a single BB holder but two cars claiming exemption. Or have I misread TfL's website?

317
A Google search suggests this constitutes procedural impropriety

IMO, Google is wrong. Procedural impropriety is not statutory grounds under the RTA. But if you were so minded you could include this within the scope of 'penalty exceeded .....circumstances of the case'..which, as you can see, has been stated incorrectly anyway!

But IMO, there's nowhere to go with these points at this stage, you need to wait for the NTO. So, are you the registered keeper with current DVLA details?

Talking of the NTO, IMO let's hope they serve this as soon as practical after the 14-day discount period has elapsed. This is because you are in a very rare situation i.e. your initial reps and their reply occurred so soon after the PCN was served, that the authority MAY NOT serve a NTO as stated, they have to wait until 28 days have elapsed: 20 March plus 14 days is 13 days short of the 28-day period. 
..
..
1)Where—

(a)a penalty charge notice has been issued with respect to a vehicle under section 66 of this Act; and

(b)the period of 28 days for payment of the penalty charge has expired without that charge being paid,

the ..

authority concerned may serve a notice (“a notice to owner”)


318
Can I try and simplify this.

The person liable is the 'keeper' (registered keeper for this purpose at the moment) at the time of the contravention. So, are you saying that both the seller and you were registered as keepers on the same day and that the issue is at what time they ceased to be keeper and you became the RK and how this change is recorded by DVLA?

Ownership in the normal sense is not relevant so I would leave this to one side for the moment. TfL only act on the basis of info provided by DVLA.

320
Is/was the vehicle hired for a period of less than 6 months or is it leased?

It's vitally important.

321
Sorry, but I don't know what this means.

The council are judges in their own cause and are unlikely to concede their error despite it being absolutely clear - they blustered all the way to appeal with my son before caving in.

322
You were parked in a permit holder's only bay and acknowledge that there was a sign to this effect some 4-5 car lengths to your rear which you would therefore have passed. Photo no. 5 posted by you is one taken by the CEO to show your car relative to this sign.

You acted upon the wrong sign i.e. on the other side of a 2-way street.

Shame, as the PCN grounds are misstated, but the council don't normally give way on this as the informal stage therefore 'I need to resolve this before any NTO is issued, as Tusker will automatically pay and then pass the cost to me, removing my ability to appeal properly.' is a tall order IMO.

323
Your first post was:

.....

An individual was driving a rental vehicle (Enterprise) and seems to have received a PCN they shouldn't have.

The individual contacted the land owner (Hotel) of the car park and has received correspondence by email that the parking charge has been waived.


IMO, I think this now needs to be examined. If the above is correct, then Enterprise's 'loss' should be made good by the person who has been paid despite 'waiving' the charge. But before you write to Enterprise, let's have these facts..and hopefully supporting evidence.

324
I don't know whether knowing more about the move would add weight to a simple submission of the facts e.g. there's no point updating a V5C until one's in position to receive mail at the new address etc.

325
IMO, there is no requirement placed on a vehicle-hire RK under PoFA to provide hire agreement information to a creditor with a view to relieving themselves of liability, it's optional.

If a vehicle-hire RK chooses not to exercise their right under clause 13 of Schedule 4, then as regards PoFA they're entitled to do so.

Whether such action, in this case paying (presumably at the lower charge), is a breach of their contractual obligations or wider legal duties is IMO another matter.

OP, pl expand on 'Enterprise have then paid for the PCN and asked the individual to reimburse them.' e.g. a direct charge to an account, an invoice(which could therefore be challenged) or what?

326
Coming to this late, but it seems as if all internal processes have yet to be exhausted e.g. complaint to council's Chief internal Auditor, a challenge to the external auditor regarding the council's accounts* etc. Also, as I read it, the council are undertaking a review. Have enquiries been made regarding how this is to be conducted e.g. is any external opinion being sought and if so from whom, when and how will the outcome be published etc?

*- I think there are conditions which apply:https://www.nao.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2022/08/Council-accounts-a-guide-to-your-rights.pdf

Extract from DfT submission to Transport Select Committee:
The authority’s auditor may decline to certify the accounts of a local authority that has used on-street parking income (and all enforcement income) in a way that is not in accordance with the provisions of section 55 of the Road Traffic
Regulation Act. Local authorities are ultimately responsible to their electorate to deliver effective parking strategies and use any revenue surpluses appropriately.

327
25 Sept. 2025 is Date last V5C issued.

I suppose it could also be the date the change was submitted to DVLA ('Date CoA submitted') if this was done online.

Any lead-in time regarding submission could only strengthen your case, so pl advise how the application was submitted.

328
I think you should put your points to Merton first, at least give yourself a chance.

The 14-day risk-free period during which the discount is maintained even if they reject ends today.

329
The hirer and Enterprise are bound by the terms of the hire agreement.

So, what does it say?

330
A suggestion:

Appeal to adjudicator against rejection of representations - PCN *********

I refer to the above and specifically the Notice to Owner issued to me on ******.

When I received the NTO, I assumed, and therefore did not consider the alternative, that the council had a lawful basis for demanding from me the penalty to which the PCN itself referred. I therefore made representations on substantive grounds. Subsequently, I was informed by my lease company of their NTO and that they had sought to transfer liability to me as if they were a vehicle hire firm and the car was hired to me under a hiring agreement. The council accepted these grounds despite there not being proof that a hiring agreement existed and that the lessee was a vehicle hire company.

But as can be seen from the attached lease, which is summarised below, this is not the case:

Lessee: Select Car Leasing;
Form of agreement: Personal contract hire;
Term: 3 years commencing May 2024 and terminating May 2027;

I was not previously aware of the legal effect of the distinction between a lease and a hiring agreement in this context, although I can now see from the Chief Adjudicator's annual reports in 2021-2022 and 2022-2023 that I was not alone and that the matter has exercised him and the tribunal for some time:

Adjudicators have found that the legal difference between short-term hire and long
leases are not well understood by motorists and authorities.

Adjudicators have found that despite the restrictive statutory provisions which are
re-stated in case law, parties are still not grasping provisions. Adjudicators noted that
some authorities have allowed transfer even when the required evidence has not
that their representations have been accepted by some but not other authorities.


I therefore respectfully submit that there has been a procedural impropriety on the part of the council in seeking to treat me as being the person liable for the penalty charge and that given that there is precedent case law my appeal should succeed on these grounds.

But OP, pl let me know whether the PCH means that you never own the car which must be returned at the end of the term.

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