Show Posts

This section allows you to view all posts made by this member. Note that you can only see posts made in areas you currently have access to.

Messages - DontStandForNonsense

Pages: [1] 2 3 ... 15
1
I have a hunch that POPLA will just say it's OK
That would be unusual. Whilst POPLA don't go in for some of the more technical arguments, they do usually judge correctly on non-PoFA cases that are as obvious as an out of time notice, when the argument is presented properly.

Quote
As this is a Waitrose carpark have you tried there to get them to cancel?
This is worth a go. Anecdotally supermarkets are quite good at intervening.

How could this be worded please as I suppose Waitrose would want to know the driver was a customer

2
Looks reasonable; although I would reference the specific paragraph in POFA.  This does assume that your Wife is the Reg Keeper with V5C in her name, and it's not a lease car?  The notice would not be compliant for a lease either, but would need a different appeal!

Odds on they will reject it anyway  :o

The parking firm or POPLA will reject it?

3
Hiya,

Yes, she is the registered keeper. I suppose my thinking that they should do their own research and that we shouldn't make it easy for them (at this stage anyway)?

4

Thank you,

I read the relevant paragraph and it states that they must serve within 14 days. Here is the appeal:

Dear Sir or Madam,

I write as the registered keeper of the above vehicle to appeal the Parking Charge Notice.

This Notice to Keeper does not comply with the mandatory requirements of Paragraph 9 of Schedule 4 to the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012. As a consequence, you are unable to transfer liability for the alleged parking charge from the driver to the registered keeper.

I am under no legal obligation to identify the driver and I decline to do so.

In the circumstances, there is no lawful basis upon which to pursue me as the registered keeper, and I require that this Parking Charge Notice be cancelled.

Should you reject this appeal, please provide a full explanation of the legal basis upon which you contend I am liable as the registered keeper despite your failure to comply with the requirements of Paragraph 9 of Schedule 4 to the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012, together with the verification code required to refer the matter to the appropriate independent appeals service.

I look forward to your confirmation that this Parking Charge Notice has been cancelled.

Yours faithfully,

5
The NTK is not atempting to use https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2012/9/schedule/4 to transfer liabiliity from the unknown driver to the registered keeper, nor can it because it is issued too late to comply with one of the legislation’s requirements (it needed to be issued by 9 July for this), so the registered keeper should appeal saying that the driver will not be identified and that the registered keeper is not liable because Britannia is unable to use PoFA 2012 to transfer liability.

If the appeal is rejected, after “careful consideration”, meaning the big red “no” button, then a follow-up appeal to POPLA will be required which will more likely be upheld.

See https://www.ftla.uk/private-parking-tickets/overstay-parkingeye-private-parking-charge-notice-asda-ashford-kent/msg126985/#new for example, which will require minor modification.

Thanks for this.

What is considered the issue date?

Date of contravention:   29/06/26
Date of notice:      23/07/26
Date received in post:   05/08/26

And is there somewhere this rule is written that I can copy in?

6
My partner received in the post yesterday a NTK (NTK_LINK) for 'Parking longer than the permitted time'

I'll be asking her shortly if she can recall any helpful information from the driver, but on the face of it, does it look like a notice she can avoid paying? The driver certainly would have been a customer at one of the associated stores.

Thank you in advance.


7
Okay,

Now I think it is ready?

DEFENCE
1.

The Defendant denies the claim in its entirety.

2.

It is admitted only that the Defendant is the registered keeper of the vehicle referred to in the Particulars of Claim. Save for that admission, every allegation is denied.

3.

The Particulars of Claim state only:

"Driver left site designated for customer parking only."

The Defendant is unable to determine from that wording the factual or legal basis of the claim.

The Particulars do not explain:

the contractual term allegedly breached;
the meaning or geographical extent of the alleged "site";
the conduct said to constitute the alleged breach;
whether the allegation concerns the driver, passengers or both;
how the alleged breach was observed; or
the basis upon which the Claimant contends liability arises.

The Defendant should not be required to speculate as to the case to be met.

Given the limited and ambiguous wording of the Particulars of Claim, this Defence is necessarily confined to the matters that can reasonably be understood from the Claimant's pleading. The Defendant reserves the right to address any further or more particularised case advanced by the Claimant during the course of these proceedings.

4.

Without prejudice to the Defendant's position that the Particulars of Claim fail properly to identify the case to be met, if the Claimant's case is that the driver left the retail park in breach of the parking terms, that allegation is expressly denied.

The Defendant's case is that the driver remained within the retail park as a genuine customer of Decathlon before returning directly to the vehicle and leaving the site. Accordingly, no contractual breach occurred.

5.

The Defendant has consistently denied that the alleged breach occurred from the earliest opportunity.

The Defendant's position is supported by contemporaneous evidence created during the visit, which will be relied upon at the witness statement stage.

6.

The photographs disclosed by the Claimant identify only the presence of the parked vehicle. They do not, on their face, evidence the alleged contractual breach pleaded in the Particulars of Claim.

7.

If the Claimant maintains that the alleged contractual breach occurred, it is required to prove:

(a) that the alleged conduct occurred;

(b) that the alleged conduct amounted to a breach of the contractual terms relied upon;

(c) that the operative accurately observed the alleged conduct;

(d) that any observations relied upon were recorded contemporaneously;

(e) that the contractual terms relied upon, including any alleged prohibition upon leaving the site, were clearly, prominently and unambiguously communicated to motorists; and

(f) that the Claimant possessed the necessary authority from the landowner both to enter contracts with motorists and to pursue this claim.

8.

Further, insofar as the Claimant seeks to establish keeper liability pursuant to Schedule 4 of the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012, such liability is denied.

The Defendant does not admit that the statutory requirements necessary to establish keeper liability have been satisfied and puts the Claimant to strict proof that the conditions prescribed by Schedule 4 have been met.

The Defendant reserves the right to amplify this issue should the Claimant seek to rely upon Schedule 4 or should further relevant information become available during the course of proceedings.

9.

The Defendant disputes the additional sums claimed over and above the original parking charge and requires the Claimant to prove the contractual and legal basis upon which those additional sums are said to be recoverable.

10.

For the reasons set out above, the Court is respectfully invited to dismiss the claim.

8
The claim is founded upon a single factual allegation, namely that the driver left the retail park in breach of the contractual terms relied upon by the Claimant.

That allegation is expressly denied.

The Defendant's case is that the driver remained within the retail park as a genuine customer of Decathlon before returning directly to the vehicle and leaving the site. Accordingly, no contractual breach occurred.



I've highlighted what I think is a mistake: you've tried to interpret their grounds.

I suggest you state exactly what's in the PoC, which is:
Driver left site designated for customer parking only.

Is a non sequitur (A non sequitur is a statement, remark, or conclusion that does not logically or naturally follow from what came before it).

Which is where you should start IMO.

Without further explanation, IMO (and forgetting your admissions on this forum) it is not possible to compile a defence because the roles of 'customer' and 'driver' are not explained. Is their claim that the driver was not a customer and left the site and there was no 'customer', or that the driver was the only customer (in the vehicle) and left the site? So is the breach that 'customers' must remain on the site or that 'drivers' must, but 'customers' are not bound by any restriction. Is the claimant saying that occupants of the car are bound by the same contractual terms which bind the driver and/or that the driver is responsible for occupants' whereabouts?

I haven't the foggiest idea!

As regards 'non compliance', IMO previous posts have overstated the requirement. Para. 9 of Sch. 4, which is the relevant part, uses these terms regarding what a notice must contain:

State;
Warn;
Inform;
Specify.

Previous posts have not differentiated between their legal meanings and IMO have sought to convey that para. 9 must be included, implicitly verbatim, and that its provisions must appear once only in a notice and in the same form as in Sch. 4.

IMO, courts have discretion regarding determining compliance i.e. is the meaning conveyed consistent with the purpose of para. 9, not just whether every word appears.

Thank you.

How about this:

DEFENCE
1.

The Defendant denies the claim in its entirety.

2.

It is admitted only that the Defendant is the registered keeper of the vehicle referred to in the Particulars of Claim. Save for that admission, every allegation is denied.

3.

The Particulars of Claim state only:

"Driver left site designated for customer parking only."

The Defendant is unable to determine from that wording the factual or legal basis of the allegation.

The Particulars do not explain:

the contractual term allegedly breached;
the meaning or geographical extent of the alleged "site";
the conduct said to constitute the alleged breach;
whether the allegation concerns the driver, passengers, or both;
how the alleged breach was observed; or
the basis upon which the Claimant contends liability arises.

The Defendant should not be required to speculate as to the case to be met.

4.

To the extent that the Claimant alleges that the driver left the retail park in breach of the parking terms, that allegation is expressly denied.

The Defendant's case is that the driver remained within the retail park as a genuine customer of Decathlon before returning directly to the vehicle and leaving the site. Accordingly, no contractual breach occurred.

5.

The Defendant has consistently denied that the alleged breach occurred from the earliest opportunity.

The Defendant's position is supported by contemporaneous evidence created during the visit, which will be relied upon at the witness statement stage.

6.

The photographs disclosed by the Claimant identify only the presence of the parked vehicle. They do not, on their face, evidence the alleged contractual breach pleaded in the Particulars of Claim.

7.

If the Claimant maintains that the alleged contractual breach occurred, it is required to prove:

(a) that the alleged conduct occurred;

(b) that the alleged conduct amounted to a breach of the contractual terms relied upon;

(c) that the operative accurately observed the alleged conduct;

(d) that any observations relied upon were recorded contemporaneously;

(e) that the contractual terms relied upon, including any alleged prohibition upon leaving the site, were clearly, prominently and unambiguously communicated to motorists; and

(f) that the Claimant possessed the necessary authority from the landowner both to enter contracts with motorists and to pursue this claim.

8.

Further, insofar as the Claimant seeks to establish keeper liability pursuant to Schedule 4 of the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012, such liability is denied.

The Defendant does not admit that the mandatory statutory conditions required to invoke keeper liability have been satisfied and puts the Claimant to strict proof of compliance with the statutory requirements.

The Defendant reserves the right to amplify this issue should the Claimant seek to rely upon Schedule 4 or should further relevant information become available during the course of proceedings.

9.

The Defendant disputes the additional sums claimed over and above the original parking charge and requires the Claimant to prove the contractual and legal basis upon which those additional sums are said to be recoverable.

10.

For the reasons set out above, the Court is respectfully invited to dismiss the claim.

9
Hi,

Please let me know what you all think?



DEFENCE
1.

The Defendant denies the claim in its entirety.

2.

It is admitted only that the Defendant is the registered keeper of the vehicle referred to in the Particulars of Claim. Save for that admission, every allegation is denied.

3.

The claim is founded upon a single factual allegation, namely that the driver left the retail park in breach of the contractual terms relied upon by the Claimant.

That allegation is expressly denied.

The Defendant's case is that the driver remained within the retail park as a genuine customer of Decathlon before returning directly to the vehicle and leaving the site. Accordingly, no contractual breach occurred.

4.

The Defendant has consistently denied that the alleged breach occurred from the earliest opportunity.

The Defendant's position is supported by contemporaneous evidence created during the visit, which will be relied upon at the witness statement stage.

5.

The Particulars of Claim fail to set out the material facts relied upon with sufficient particularity to enable the Defendant fully to understand the case to be met.

In particular, the Particulars fail to identify:

the contractual term allegedly breached;
the geographical extent of the alleged "site";
where the driver is alleged to have gone;
how the alleged breach was observed; and
the factual basis upon which liability is asserted.

The burden rests upon the Claimant to prove each element of its claim.

6.

The photographs disclosed by the Claimant identify only the presence of the parked vehicle. They do not, on their face, evidence the alleged contractual breach upon which the claim is founded.

7.

If the Claimant maintains that the alleged contractual breach occurred, it is required to prove:

(a) that the alleged conduct occurred;

(b) that the alleged conduct amounted to a breach of the contractual terms relied upon;

(c) that the operative accurately observed the alleged conduct;

(d) that any observations relied upon were recorded contemporaneously;

(e) that the contractual terms relied upon, including any alleged prohibition upon leaving the site, were clearly, prominently and unambiguously communicated to motorists; and

(f) that the Claimant possessed the necessary authority from the landowner both to enter contracts with motorists and to pursue this claim.

8.

Further, insofar as the Claimant seeks to establish keeper liability pursuant to Schedule 4 of the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012, such liability is denied.

The Defendant does not admit that the mandatory statutory conditions required to invoke keeper liability have been satisfied and puts the Claimant to strict proof of full compliance.

The Defendant reserves the right to expand upon this issue should the Claimant seek to rely upon Schedule 4 or should further relevant information become available during the course of proceedings.

9.

The Defendant disputes the additional sums claimed over and above the original parking charge and requires the Claimant to prove the contractual and legal basis upon which those additional sums are said to be recoverable.

10.

For the reasons set out above, the Court is respectfully invited to dismiss the claim.

Statement of Truth

I believe that the facts stated in this Defence are true.

Signed: ___________________________

Name: ____________________________

Date: _____________________________

10
@b789 hasn't been active on these forums for many months now, and didn't bother to explain the reasons why your notice didn't comply with PoFA 2012.
So either you can look for yourself (https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2012/9/schedule/4) or one of the other volunteers here may be able to help you.

I can add, although it doesn't help you here, that I believe that whenever I advise non-compliance with PoFA 2012 on this forum I also quote the relevant part of the legislation and why the notice doesn't comply.

Thank you. I'll try and understand how, if at all, the NTK didn't comply AND check the case that was referenced as an example. Not going to lie, legallesse is often utter gibberish to me, but ill try. I hope that in the mean time, a volunteer might understand it all better. Otherwise I think the only approach will be to argue that no evidence was provided (that is quite a straight forward thing for me to understand and argue argue) There is no evidence because non exists.

11
How and at what point should I be sharing the points? And will the photos taken in store and dialogue relating to the stores products time stamped through whatsapp be used or are they not relevant to the defense?

Your defence will be a written statement, logical simple and clear.

Your original appeal was on the basis of non-compliance with PoFA 2012, so your defence should lead with this and amplify exactly what requirement(s) of the legislation were missed/failed and why.

Personally I would also argue against the meaningless "charge" on the NtK and repeated in the Particulars of Claim.

If this ever gets to court, you will provide a witness statement which would include the other things you mention.

Also note that, in our experience, Moorside Legal is exceptionally incompetent, so you should not assume that they know what they're doing or talking about.

If you post a draft defence here you will likely get comments and suggestions on it. This thread and other information on the forum should give you a good starting point for this.

Do you know exactly how the NTK was non compliant with the PoFA?

No, I assumed that because you said so in your appeal last December that you knew how, or had worked it out since then.

B789 said because of deficiencies in their Notice to Keeper (NtK) they cannot rely on PoFA 2012 to transfer the liability from the unknown driver to the known Keeper. But I'm not sure what those deficiencies were. B789 said they relied on contract law and that they can only hold the driver liable. B789 wen to say Notice to Keeper fails to comply with the mandatory requirements of Schedule 4 of the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012. But I just don't understand if I should be simply repeating this is the defence or that I should be specific on how. And I don't know how it failed to comply with it specifically.

What i do understand is that they provided no evidence to support their evidence that the driver left the site.

12
How and at what point should I be sharing the points? And will the photos taken in store and dialogue relating to the stores products time stamped through whatsapp be used or are they not relevant to the defense?

Your defence will be a written statement, logical simple and clear.

Your original appeal was on the basis of non-compliance with PoFA 2012, so your defence should lead with this and amplify exactly what requirement(s) of the legislation were missed/failed and why.

Personally I would also argue against the meaningless "charge" on the NtK and repeated in the Particulars of Claim.

If this ever gets to court, you will provide a witness statement which would include the other things you mention.

Also note that, in our experience, Moorside Legal is exceptionally incompetent, so you should not assume that they know what they're doing or talking about.

If you post a draft defence here you will likely get comments and suggestions on it. This thread and other information on the forum should give you a good starting point for this.

Do you know exactly how the NTK was non compliant with the PoFA?

13
Before you continue with this, get it into your head that you must NEVER, EVER identify the driver. You have clearly done so to us, maybe inadvertently, but if you respond to the PCN like that, you will have blabbed the drivers identity and thrown away one of the best defences you will ever have for these charges!

UKPC have NO IDEA who the driver is unless you blab it to them. Because of deficiencies in their Notice to Keeper (NtK) they cannot rely on PoFA 2012 to transfer the liability from the unknown driver to the known Keeper. The driver is always liable and unless you, as the Keeper, refer to the driver in the third person, you will have shot yourself in both feet with a single shot! You never say silly things like "I did this or that", only "the driver did this or that". Don't tell 'em your name Pike!

So, to the PCN itself... what evidence have they provided to support their allegation that "driver left site designated for customer parking"? I'll bet you that they have not provided ANY evidence to support their allegation. Also, their NtK is not fully compliant with ALL the requirements of PoFA to be able to hold the Keeper liable if the driver is not identified.

There is no legal obligation on the known keeper to reveal the identity of the unknown driver to an unregulated private parking firm and no inference or assumptions can be made.

The NtK is not compliant with all the requirements of PoFA which means that if the unknown driver is not identified, they cannot transfer liability for the charge from the unknown driver to the known keeper.

Use the following as your appeal. No need to embellish or remove anything from it:

Quote
I am the keeper of the vehicle and I dispute your 'parking charge'. I deny any liability or contractual agreement and I will be making a complaint about your predatory conduct to your client landowner.

As your Notice to Keeper (NtK) does not fully comply with ALL the requirements of PoFA 2012, you are unable to hold the keeper of the vehicle liable for the charge. Partial or even substantial compliance is not sufficient. There will be no admission as to who was driving and no inference or assumptions can be drawn. UKPC has relied on contract law allegations of breach against the driver only.

The registered keeper cannot be presumed or inferred to have been the driver, nor pursued under some twisted interpretation of the law of agency. Your NtK can only hold the driver liable. UKPC have no hope at POPLA, so you are urged to save us both a complete waste of time and cancel the PCN.

Come back the they reject the appeal and give you a POPLA code. No initial appeal is ever successful because there is no money in it for them if they accept.

Hiya,

Do I repeat this in the court form or do I need to know the specific POFA defects?

14

I would instinctively say that no evidence has been provided that the driver was not a customer or that the driver left the site or am  I to repeat the line from the appeal "As your Notice to Keeper (NtK) does not fully comply with ALL the requirements of PoFA 2012, you are unable to hold the keeper of the vehicle liable for the charge. Partial or even substantial compliance is not sufficient. There will be no admission as to who was driving and no inference or assumptions can be drawn. UKPC has relied on contract law allegations of breach against the driver only.

The registered keeper cannot be presumed or inferred to have been the driver, nor pursued under some twisted interpretation of the law of agency"

Unsure of what a defense should be.

15
How and at what point should I be sharing the points? And will the photos taken in store and dialogue relating to the stores products time stamped through whatsapp be used or are they not relevant to the defense?

Your defence will be a written statement, logical simple and clear.

Your original appeal was on the basis of non-compliance with PoFA 2012, so your defence should lead with this and amplify exactly what requirement(s) of the legislation were missed/failed and why.

Personally I would also argue against the meaningless "charge" on the NtK and repeated in the Particulars of Claim.

If this ever gets to court, you will provide a witness statement which would include the other things you mention.

Also note that, in our experience, Moorside Legal is exceptionally incompetent, so you should not assume that they know what they're doing or talking about.

If you post a draft defence here you will likely get comments and suggestions on it. This thread and other information on the forum should give you a good starting point for this.

Sorry are you saying that the defense should  lead with the defect alluded to by B789 post "As your Notice to Keeper (NtK) does not fully comply with ALL the requirements of PoFA 2012, you are unable to hold the keeper of the vehicle liable for the charge." Do I need to specify how their NTK doesn't comply or is it simply enough to repeat what was said in the original appeal by keeping it general?


Pages: [1] 2 3 ... 15