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Messages - Incandescent

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31
The Flame Pit / 2260057561 Regulation 9 PCN warning - Carl Teper
« on: August 03, 2026, 10:20:20 pm »
Very gratified to see this case adjudicated by Carl Teper, an adjudicator I think we all trust on the forum even when the judgment goes against us !

It concerns a warning on the PCN served at the roadside, that I remember banging-on about even in old Pepipoo and at a last I see judgment I might have written myself, although I wouldn't be able to quote the learned judgments.


32
I have today supplied the OP with a copy of the TPT case of 2018. It is not totally the same, but the core issue with this case is requesting the toll fee on the PCN even though the toll fee was paid, albeit late. To me this is unlawful, and Caroline Shepard agreed in 2018. If course, if the toll fee had not been paid at all, then the argument is solely about whether it can be requested on the PCN.

I believe there has been a later similar case which was lost. For me, TPT seem to be recruiting nodding donkeys at the moment, and those nods are totally in council favour. The later case totally ignored the judgment of the previous Chief Adjudicator, no less.

33
As far as I can see, the main issue here is their delay in responding to your reps. It is about three months, which  the level at which London Tribunals have regarded as excessive, but this is not formalised in a Practice Direction, unfortunately. If it were, your case would be much stronger.

34
I wasn't sure if the OdR submission is a Witness Statement or a Statutory Declaration for the London CC. It is a WS for outside London, I think.

35
Quote
It’s a bit strange that they only show the 2nd half of the video.
Because that's where the camera is. Best that they don't have two, else you'd have received two PCNs !

36
Just follow the process and submit a Witness Statement when you get the OfR. After the period for payment of the CC, check with TEC every 7-10 days on the registration of the PCN. This is because you have had mail redirection problems. Once you know the debt is registered, download the WS form from the TEC website. No need for "Reason", just check the relvant tick-box.

https://www.gov.uk/government/collections/traffic-enforcement-centre-forms

37
It seems to me that despite your agreement with the hire company, you are still liable, as the owner of the car, and you hold the V5C.

Best to test your case at adjudication.

38
Their letter isn't just a Fob-Off, but a devious way to reject representations when they know full-well that the exemption applies.

39
If the TMO permits loading in these bays for disabled permit holders

The exemption in the TMO from my understanding is that a any vehicle can load/unload without having a disabled permit or in fact any permit.

I do not have a disabled permit holder, only a permit for that zone, that would allow the car to be parked anywhere on that road, expect a disabled resident bay.,
Sorry, just re-read my text and what I meant was loading by anyone in bays for disabled permit holders !

40
Their video doesn't confirm your narrative. It shows you turning right into the Bus/cycle route and proceeding towards the roundabout. Looking at Google Street View shows the only road to come out of and turn right is the entrance to Hertfordshire Sporrts Village.

https://maps.app.goo.gl/YKSjBirmWFVyZ88f8

You can look at the video using the PCN Number and your car reg. The website is www.pcn.hertfordshire.gov.uk

In addition to the actual restriction signs, there is also a No Right Turn sign facing the exit from the Sports Village : -
https://maps.app.goo.gl/i53RZEByC9RKY6y9A

Frankly, I cannot think of anything that might form a reasonable appeal at all, maybe you can expand on your narrative. Presumably you drove down ALbatross Way to get to the Sports Village. If you did, you would have seen the Bus Gate signs. Or is there another way in to the Sports Village ?

41
God, what tosh !  However, they don't say you cannot load in these bays, but must establish a exemption. The CEO saw you at the time for heavens sake, and you told him you were loading !!

There is no requirement in law or the regulations for loading to be attended all the time. But of course, this is the usual Fob-Off letter we see so often. If it were me, I'd be taking them to London Tribunals, if the TMO permits loading in these bays for disabled permit holders. Of course if it doesn't, pay the discount.

42
The advanced sign does diminish the strength of your case. However, with a bus stop just before it, it could be obscured by a stopped bus, or one just starting off from the stop. Could this have been your case ?

Anyway, whatever you present to the council, they will reject it. This is because if they do this, and re-offer the discount, most people just fold and cough-up to get the discount, being nervous about adjudication and think it will cost them hundreds, (lkke going to court instead of paying a fixed penalty for speeding). In fact the only financial cost if a case is lost is the full PCN penalty, so it's a bit of a 'double-or-quits' gamble.

So successful are councils and TfL at gaming the system like this that they are now making about £650 million from PCN penalties per year. So any hope of no bias when a council considers reps is total naivety.

43
So you missed this advance sign, then ?

https://maps.app.goo.gl/zF8zXkcgspVYvsqx6

The presence of this sign reduces the strength of your case considerably.

44
Was your approach from the south or the north ?

The toll signs are designed deliberately to generate lots of PCNs, because it is money-for-old-rope for TfL, which can say "it's all signed". But there are no details about how to pay, all you see is the "C" sign as you approach, and the adjudicators at London Tribunals seem to agree, quite why one must ask.

https://maps.app.goo.gl/VDv7azk6GbzXmDY46


45
https://ibb.co/HTP58Lkj
"The front bumper was slightly overhanging the pavement,"

This is a wind-up, surely !

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